Author Topic: Ohlins vs Coilovers and STi Suspension solutions  (Read 10317 times)

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Offline canehdianJ

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Ohlins vs Coilovers and STi Suspension solutions
« on: January 07, 2010, 02:47:18 pm »
Like the title says.  Looking to replace my stupid bumpstop riding bobble head causing retard suspension with some proper swedish designed japan build golden glorys.

Cash in hand :)

EDIT:  I have changed the thread title to be more appropriate to the information in this thread.  M

JasonrMorrow

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2010, 03:42:59 pm »
I have seen 1 set in a year and a half on this forum. And they sold on the car.

What about this route...sounds like you are upset with travel and the stock shocks.
There is a path you can take in steps or all at once.

With the Ground Control full kit you ca fully rebuild the coilover. If the Koni shocks leak they can be
pulled out and new ones pushed in. ($160 USD each), if the threads on the sleeve get screwed up you can buy a replacement for $15 USD. If you don't like the spring rates a new pair in whatever rate and length you want will be $60 USD.

So many options, tons of travel vs stock STI suspension, cheap rebuilds and should cost about the same as the used Ohlins/Blacks that you want.

The complete kit from Ground Control with Koni shocks minus their camber plates will cost around $1600 USD. Or you can do the complete coils on the front and wrx struts in the rear with koni inserts
and a different set of GC sleeves ($15)

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspension-handling-stiffening/85406-ground-control-koni-coilovers-incuding-2005-stis.html

An excerpt...

Quote
Stage 1: $400
- Get the Ground Control coil-over sleeves and springs
- For the stock dampers, 300/250# springs work great. Mark (@GC) will work with you based on your needs, though.
- Set the springs to stock ride height for best ride quality.

Stage 2: $650
- Install Ground Control camber plates up front
- Since the camber plates add suspension travel, lower the car half an inch. You will still have more bump travel than stock, making Stage 2 a significant improvement.
- Upgrade to off-the-shelf Koni's in the rear in WRX housings

Stage 3: $625
- Get Koni SA's from Ground Countrol
- Get Koni housings from Ground Control
- Lower the car much more thanks to the gobs of new suspension travel

Offline canehdianJ

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2010, 05:41:28 pm »
I want to stay at stock height or maybe 0.5" in the front and .25" in the rear down. 

I am hunting for a suspension that handles like a bmw's, firm with minimal body roll yet comfortable for the daily drive.  Would those work for that? 


JasonrMorrow

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2010, 06:14:09 pm »
The # 1 customer for Ground Control is the BMW crowd.

To maintain stock height with an increase in spring rate requires a coilover, no spring available will do this.

With this sytem you get your choice of spring rates and lengths. That means you can run a tall enough spring near the bottom of the perch to limit the chance of coil bind, stay at or near stock height and increase spring rate. Coil bind is fairly common on coilovers and will kill struts.

The best thing would be to call Mark at GC and talk with him abot what you want. There are other guys that answer calls but Mark runs the show.

The best way to ride well and handle is by adding sway bars. The extra stiffness you get by adding a 24mm sway bar is equivalent to an additional 860lbs to your spring rate.

Keep in mind stock is 224 and a performance spring is around 285.

So stick with modest spring rates and run a 24mm front and rear bar and with the extra shock travel you will be off the bumpstops and the euro valving of the konis should keep the ride comfortable.

Offline canehdianJ

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2010, 12:40:12 am »
im pretty sure the combination listed above that i initially inquired about is about 1000$ more, but if I can avoid coil overs and get the same end result, of M3 esc handling and comfort, then what would the reason be to go to coil overs, especiallywith 25 point adjustment on the ohlins.  money is not the issue for me.  a big red flag comes to my head when you say coil over. 

the only other thing i would really want is the RB320 suspension

JasonrMorrow

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2010, 06:32:02 am »
Can you explain the fear of coilovers ? Once the ride height is set you don't have to touch the adjuster ever again. The springs are high quality eibach coilover springs and the lower perch collar is a clamping lock which works much better and is more reliable than the dual collar style.

I'm not upset if you buy ohlins that's for sure ! Just trying to give you more options and information.

Offline canehdianJ

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2010, 10:59:02 pm »
well your doing a fantastic job of giving me more information. 

My coilover fear comes from so many people i know having problems with them, and most of the time the ride isnt great.  Even grant puts his stock suspension back on for the winter.  I am looking for something thats not fussy, simple to adjust and can be great in track situations as well as long drive and doesnt leave me too low to the ground.  I was looking at one of RCE's coilovers but for the same price i can get the ohlins and after a great deal of hunting i cannot find a negative review on them.  Those are my reasons for wanting those struts.

Offline ultimatt

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2010, 02:34:01 am »
well your doing a fantastic job of giving me more information. 

My coilover fear comes from so many people i know having problems with them, and most of the time the ride isnt great.  Even grant puts his stock suspension back on for the winter.  I am looking for something thats not fussy, simple to adjust and can be great in track situations as well as long drive and doesnt leave me too low to the ground.  I was looking at one of RCE's coilovers but for the same price i can get the ohlins and after a great deal of hunting i cannot find a negative review on them.  Those are my reasons for wanting those struts.

The ride isn't 'great' because most coilovers have high spring rates. If you are picking your own rates this is likely a non-issue.
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Offline canehdianJ

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2010, 10:18:20 am »
well your doing a fantastic job of giving me more information. 

My coilover fear comes from so many people i know having problems with them, and most of the time the ride isnt great.  Even grant puts his stock suspension back on for the winter.  I am looking for something thats not fussy, simple to adjust and can be great in track situations as well as long drive and doesnt leave me too low to the ground.  I was looking at one of RCE's coilovers but for the same price i can get the ohlins and after a great deal of hunting i cannot find a negative review on them.  Those are my reasons for wanting those struts.

The ride isn't 'great' because most coilovers have high spring rates. If you are picking your own rates this is likely a non-issue.

this is true, but i still dont see the appeal of coil overs if they are relatively the same price as the ohlins....

maybe I am missing something.

Offline ultimatt

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2010, 11:54:01 am »
I was under the impression that ohlins struts were about $2000 and the blacks $400.

Jason's info on the coilovers had them priced at about $1700.
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Offline canehdianJ

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2010, 03:32:09 pm »
I guess i have my research work cut out for me.  Jason you have given me way to much work to do!

Thank you both for the information.  Good thing i have 6 months to find a solution :)

But i wont pass on used Ohlins so ill leave this tread up  ^-^ in the hopes that one may pop up.

Offline jutes

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2010, 04:03:12 pm »
Doubt you'll find a used set on here, chances are you'll be buying from the US.

JasonrMorrow

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2010, 04:44:40 pm »
I guess i have my research work cut out for me.  Jason you have given me way to much work to do!

Thank you both for the information.  Good thing i have 6 months to find a solution :)

But i wont pass on used Ohlins so ill leave this tread up  ^-^ in the hopes that one may pop up.

Welcome to my world, too much time to think about what I want. I've been back and forth on 3 different setups in the last 2 months.

The Ground Control full coilover but without camber plates will be around $1550 or $1600 USD I think. You may have to modify your front tophats to work (or get camber plates). The rears have to be modified for sure.

The GC setup is actually cheaper than the Tarmac 0 that I am looking at and gives me shock adjustability and my pick of spring rates. The Tarmac 0's have a rate that I like as well so I'm really torn since I don't know that I WANT shock adjustability but I don't really want to pay more NOT to have it.



JasonrMorrow

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2010, 07:06:35 pm »
In my mind the fewer the adjustments on the car the better. Less on your mind that you can tweak(fewer excuses or mind games). The car will pretty much be "all new" for me in Autox with the amount of suspension changes I'm making this winter so eventually I will just learn to drive it again. Once the car is setup, with a decent amount of research and knowledge, then leave it and learn to drive it. At least thats the way I think. I do have the advantage of tweaking my alignment whenever I want. I have a rack and machine at work that I can use whenever I want. 95% of those alignments are just making sure everything is exactly the same as last event.

I don't think there are many of us here who have developed a driving style that can't improve or change. And I think there are fewer who can tune a shock/suspension properly. I have no idea how, I have read how, it seems tedious, seat of the pants is a pretty terrible gauge in my opinion and you would need some data acquisition and track time to set properly.

Here is some information I found with a quick search on Shock Tuning.

Before they even get into shock tuning, take a look at
the precautions. This is geared towards a road course but be honest with yourself and think if you would be able to accomplish
point #2. Specifically stating the handling issue with the car. Especially taking into account factor #4, and #6.

Sure the ultimate suspension is out there, but do we all have the potential to USE IT ? Not on the street, and no one here is driving on a race track full time with endorsement so I doubt it.

I know we are all enthusiasts, we all want to improve out cars, its a passion and a disease at the same time. Driving our
cars isn't paying the bills though...

Quote
Suspension Tuning Tips       by Bob Tunnell

Before getting into specifics of suspension tuning, here are some thoughts about suspension tuning drawn from my own experience...

1. When listening to advice, consider the source and the context. Many of the Internet special interest groups are a wonderful source of information. But one of the biggest drawbacks to all the advice you see on SIGs is that the authors are rarely qualified to offer SPECIFIC advice for YOUR car. It's easy to SOUND like an authority... it's rare to actually BE one. When reading their advice, pay particular attention to what make and model of car they own and drive, what modifications have they made that are truly applicable to your car, how experienced they are, what discipline are they tuning for (autocross, road race, street, track, etc.), and how closely their budget resembles yours.

2. Be specific in your analysis. If your car is pushing, pay particular attention to *when* it pushes. Is it on initial turn-in? Is it mid corner? Is it on corner exit? Or is it a combination of all three? For example, if a car pushes in mid corner, but not upon entry or exit, chances are the problem lies with alignment, spring, or bars... not the shocks. So it's critical to properly identify the symptom and isolate the true cause of the problem... the treatment needs to address the root cause.

3. Fix the end of the car that has the problem. If your car isn't turning in properly, don't adjust the rear of the car to try to make the front end work better. Conversely, if the car is extremely tail happy because of low rear grip, decreasing the front grip to compensate may make the car feel balanced, but it will ultimately make you slower. Often in Stock class autocrossing or road racing we're forced into adjusting the "wrong" end of the car because rules limit our ability to adjust properly, but these methods should be considered a last resort.

4. Don't discount driving technique as a big factor. Most drivers don't like to hear this, but it's true. I can't tell you the number of times I've been told by a driver, "My M3 pushes like a pig!" But when I get in the car it seems perfectly balanced to me. I'll ask the driver what his previous car was and invariably it was a Camaro, Mustang, Corvette, or other high horsepower RWD car. M3s were not built to handle the same as pony cars and they cannot be driven quickly with the same technique. Slow sweepers in particular need to be entered slowly, under control, and "carved"... not tail-out Dukes Of Hazard style. And the best part -- changing your driving technique doesn't cost you anything!

5. For the best results stick with one tuner. Professional high performance tuners know more than anyone else about how to make your car fast. We work on making cars faster and handle better day in and day out. We know which products perform best together and which ones don't. By mixing and matching products -- usually in an attempt to get the lowest price -- customers often end up with a car that doesn't respond like any of the advertising claims they've been reading. Put a pot pouri of components on your car and you'll likely end up with a mixed bag of results and wasting your money. Different tuners have their areas of expertise and their advice.... spend a little extra, discuss your needs and budget with a professional tuner, and you'll likely get far more value for your money.

6. "Compromise cars" will not do everything well. I am frequently asked how to set up a car that will be good on the track, but still plenty comfortable to drive on the street. Not everyone can afford to own enough cars to have one for a commuter, one for autocrossing, one for road racing, one for rallying, and another for concourse events. Most of us are forced to live with compromises... one, or maybe two, cars that have to perform a variety of functions. When asking a tuner for advice on how to set up your car, you must first determine in your own mind what compromises you'll be able to live with and be certain to communicate your needs. If winning autocrosses is more important than having a luxurious ride during your 5-minute commute, chances are you'll be happy having your car set up more for performance. But if you drive an hour to work over frost heaves and tar strips, you probably should set up your car more for comfort and leave the WRC Championship for another time. BMWs are amazing cars and can do a lot of things well, but don't expect a tuner to do the impossible.

Also some more good reading here...this car is now owned by a local Autox'er with the SASC club.
The original builder, Dennis Grant won SCCA nationals in the USA, he knows what he is talking about. He
was also a shock engineer at a race team at one point.

He doesn't have a lot of love for adjustable shocks, since on his shock dyno the adjustments do very little or work incorrectly.

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

Offline canehdianJ

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2010, 12:42:11 pm »
Well my main goal is to make it a more useable everyday car, but able to do the odd autocross or rallycross.  I do DD this car.  I am hoping to find a suspension system that will act similarily to my buddys ms3.  It was awesome!  it ate up the bumps but when he pushed it, there was little roll, great turn in and it gripped like a leach.  Ive been in a few BMW's that felt exactly like that.  So theres my goal, basically what our suspensions should have been initially anyway.  I did some more research on your whole ground control system, and I VERY much like the idea of selecting the spring rate and drop.  I also like the better valving and camber plates. (for hundreds less) My question comes about the konis themselfs.  Exactly how much adjustment can you get out of them.  Is it possible to get my bmw feeling suspension out of it and then be able to stiffen it up a bit if I want to take it autocrossing or rally crossing?

Like i said, you have given me way too much to think about.  Any advice is also appreciated

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2010, 01:52:36 pm »
It all comes down to what you will use the car for.

Now I know how some people are, they say they want to use the car for rallycross/autocross/schoolzonecross. Don't bs a bs'er, we all know that won't happen regularly. ;) You might get out to one or two autocrosses in the summer. You need a good performing strut/spring combo, forget about coilovers if you aren't racing the car very often. There are lots of people who DD their cars with coilovers and say they are comfy. They are full of itshay OR they drive on pristine California type roads. What you need are the Ohlins with a good spring or if you can find a set, the RB320 spring/struts. Forget about coilovers, you don't need them and the millions of settings they have for Edmonton streets.

JasonrMorrow

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2010, 04:11:58 pm »
Another option. RCE Tarmac Zero. Built by KW to RCE specs. INOX coating, will not rust. Warrantied for life, Ohlins has 1 yr warranty. Myles at RCE is soon flying to Germany to become a certified rebuilder. They are typically seeing 3-4 years between rebuilds on the T Zeros.

The ride hide adjustment of the coilovers is the easiest, results are black and white and measureable, and is only required once or twice if the suspension settles. The damping is the somewhat "black art" part, unless you have some fancy tools, requires much more time and attention to detail, as well as technical knowledge.

I will take ride height adjustment and correct valving over fixed height and adjustable dampers anytime.

Ohlins adjustment seems like a hassle to me. The adjuster is on the bottom of the strut, means laying on your back to adjust.

Tarmac 0 is fixed valving and you just adjust ride height. Spring rates can be 350/300 I believe. 400/340 is their stock rate.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspension-handling-stiffening/161982-attn-rce-could-you-give-comparison-your-t-zeroes-vs-ohlins-rce-springs.html

As for comfortable coilovers, correct spring rates, Euro type valving, correct ride height and ample travel will offer good ride.
You can't group all coilovers into one category and say they aren't comfortable. Japanese coilovers are stiff, valved very aggressively and work well on a smooth surface. It is a completely different strategy compared to the Euro builders.
Travel is a big issue with the Stock STI suspension since you are .75" off the bumpstops in the rear with stock springs. The Ohlins gives you 1" longer shock stroke but with a lowering spring you will still be on the bump stops.

Offline pearl boxer

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2010, 05:17:33 pm »
If you wanted to be able adjust the ride height of your suspension, have a fairly user friendly single adjustable damper, have tons of suspension travel, and have that Euro feeling suspension, you could look at TIC's custom AST coilovers.  They are relatively pricey though.

Offline Waller

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2010, 06:27:48 pm »
Coilovers for a DD are itshay. They will never match a spring and strut combo. I totally agree with Jutes. 

Offline Zaider

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2010, 08:04:03 am »
Jason, correct me if Im wrong, but here's what I've read about adjustable shocks. Im by no means an expert, but I tried to read as much as I could about my Tokico D-specs (adjustable dampening, static ride height) when i got them.

From what I could tell, there is no such thing as "stiffening up the car for autocross or track" by adjusting the dampening. The idea behind adjustable dampening struts is that you can eventually perfectly match the strut rate to whatever spring you have on there. Each spring (not even each manufacturer but each spring) has its own exact ideal strut rate. Therefore, changing the strut dampening rate from that "ideal" position wont get you anything. If you under-damp your spring for the road, you're going to feel like a cadillac over bumps as the strut wont be able to "contain" the spring as effectively as it should. If you over-damp your spring for the track, you're going to hit all the little bumps on the tarmac and the spring wont be able to expand as quickly as it should, therefore, you'll jump over a bump and the tire will be off the ground for longer than it should.

Ideally, you can set up your strut for the ideal dampening on the street and nothing should change with respect to that for the track.

As you go around a corner, the springs are what is holding up your car, not the struts. Therefore, if you want a good ride that handles well on the track, check out a progressive spring... soaks up the bumps but still handles well around a corner.
Go home Subaru. You're drunk.
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audis are disposable suicide machines with 700lb of stupid interior itshay glued to them and 200 more horsepower than it needs so that their owners can never bring on track or drive anywhere more aggressively than a camry except when weaving in and out of traffic and letting the traction control soak up their incompetence

JasonrMorrow

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2010, 09:04:31 am »
Zev,

That is what I feel is correct as well. But I've seem to found information that varies as well.
Suggesting that you can have your comfortable ride on the street then dial it up.

I haven't found a good explanation or solid explanation so I haven't posted anything. It is my belief
that an adjustable shock is adjustable to match the spring. Not to tune for the type of ride quality you
want that day.

F1 shocks are fixed, they are not adjustable. They use a chassis rig that shakes the car and measures
frequencies, once they decide on valving it is done. No adjustments are made at the track.

Offline Zaider

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2010, 09:12:53 am »
Ok. Good to hear Im on the right track. With that in mind, what I would suggest to the OP is to read spring reviews on Nasioc. I understand that you want BMW suspension feeling, but the simple fact is that the BMW suspension is set up differently than a Subaru's. Try a progressive spring and pick your strut to match. The reason I went with the D-specs is I wanted a fairly soft spring. My Tanabe GF210s are a progressive spring but they're listed rate is 168/157, which is pretty soft. However, my car is mainly a daily driver and I felt that stiffer swaybars and (eventually) endlinks will make up for that should I take my car to the track. Since I went with a softer spring, there weren't a lot of choices for strut that would match that, therefore I was left with either the D-specs or the Koni Yellows. I liked the infinite adjustability of the D-specs so I went that route. Im really happy with them.
Go home Subaru. You're drunk.
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audis are disposable suicide machines with 700lb of stupid interior itshay glued to them and 200 more horsepower than it needs so that their owners can never bring on track or drive anywhere more aggressively than a camry except when weaving in and out of traffic and letting the traction control soak up their incompetence

JasonrMorrow

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2010, 11:17:36 am »
I didn't gt back to edit in time...

There are however a few clicks/turns/adjustments that can be made either side of "ideal"
to get the car to behave slightly different.

The way rebound and compression are set contributes to weight transfer on braking and cornering and can have an effect on under/over steer.

Offline Zaider

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2010, 11:20:03 am »
But wouldn't that be more to compensate for something else?
Go home Subaru. You're drunk.
Quote from: seat safety switch
audis are disposable suicide machines with 700lb of stupid interior itshay glued to them and 200 more horsepower than it needs so that their owners can never bring on track or drive anywhere more aggressively than a camry except when weaving in and out of traffic and letting the traction control soak up their incompetence

JasonrMorrow

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Re: WTB: OHLINS struts and RCE blacks.
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2010, 01:00:51 pm »
The entire suspension has to be able to compensate for varying conditions track to track, varying grip levels etc.

The shocks can be used along with other adjustments to create the handlong you desire.

Here is a lotus forum with a Calgary autox'er verifying his findings. It shows his simple notes on how shock,sway bar or tire pressures can be adjusted to attain the same handling result.

This particular guy and his co driver are very quick...they race the Exige in ASP and went to Lincoln last year for the SCCA finals and the car is competitive enough to win the class. They coned away their chances though.

My point is they know car setup, but notice how many laps he did at race city to verify his notes and research. This is a luxury most of us don't have.

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f99/tuning-dual-adjustable-shocks-75126/