Author Topic: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K  (Read 1493 times)

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Offline gc8guy

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Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« on: June 15, 2013, 09:09:36 PM »
So I have a JDM EJ20K and it takes about 10-15 cranks to start the car cold the first time. Ever other time after the first start it starts normally 3-4 cranks.

THIS IS NOT A V1-2 I have the silicone coils.

Don't think it can be ignitor or coils - I read that leaking injectors could be a possibility.

Offline purdy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2013, 09:21:33 PM »
Are you throwing any codes? How does it run after it starts? Crank/cam sensor
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Offline VanCharvel

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2013, 10:24:59 AM »
Could also be the fuel pump perhaps. Can you hear it priming?
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Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2013, 12:10:13 PM »
Are you throwing any codes? How does it run after it starts? Crank/cam sensor

No codes - runs and drives great but is in Limp mode(only getting .5 bar) so I still have to reset the ecu - but I don't think it's effecting it.

Again - after the first start which takes 5-10 cranks it starts just like it should  3-4 cranks.

Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2013, 12:11:44 PM »
Could also be the fuel pump perhaps. Can you hear it priming?
I will listen to it next chance I get - but I don't see how it will affect - since it's only the first start. If it was the fuel pump shouldn't it start long all the time?

Offline NiceEqualLengths

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2013, 02:03:25 PM »
I will listen to it next chance I get - but I don't see how it will affect - since it's only the first start. If it was the fuel pump shouldn't it start long all the time?
Its built pressure after starting and running after the first start. All it does is just push the fuel into the injector. The first start has no line pressure.
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Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2013, 11:04:55 PM »
Its built pressure after starting and running after the first start. All it does is just push the fuel into the injector. The first start has no line pressure.

Yes I guess it looses pressure after sitting for a while that's why the first start is the bad one.

After talking to a few more people were leaning towards the fuel pressure regulator or a leaky injector(s)

I'm going to disconnect a fuel line from the fuel filter in the engine bay and see if there is pressure.

Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2013, 06:05:51 PM »
I have no idea what's going on - I reset the ECU by connecting all the connectors and it started normally now.

Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2013, 11:13:20 AM »
So after sitting a little the issue returned but a little worse, now it ALWAYS takes 10-15 cranks to start even if I shut it off and re-start right away.

Priming the fuel pump helped reduce the cranks so I changed the fuel pump for a working one with no luck, however priming the fuel pump STILL helps reduce the cranks even after I changed the fuel pump......

I also changed the fuel filter, cam, crank sensors with no luck.

NO CELS

Offline SingallZ

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2013, 11:29:08 AM »
If you think its Injectors do this:
1. Dump some injector cleaning in you tank and drive it around, then repeat with another tank
2. If this get even a tiny bit better send your Injectors out to be cleaned

The following sensors also could be causing havoc with this:
1. TPS could be fluctuating while starting and causing mix issues
2. Coil pack (dead or dying), spark wires (shorting, maybe look for flashes in a dark garage), and plugs (incorrectly gapped)
3. Temp sensor (could make the engine think its warm when its not and not dumping enough fuel)

If none of this works you said you weren't making boost (limp mode), this could be something much worse is happening  and I'd try the following
1. Compression test
2. If weak test <120psi in any cylinder or all of them; you should do a leak down test

If none of this turns up anything you're more then welcome to borrow my evo scan and we could try a deeper dive.

Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2013, 12:20:36 PM »
If you think its Injectors do this:
1. Dump some injector cleaning in you tank and drive it around, then repeat with another tank
2. If this get even a tiny bit better send your Injectors out to be cleaned

The following sensors also could be causing havoc with this:
1. TPS could be fluctuating while starting and causing mix issues
2. Coil pack (dead or dying), spark wires (shorting, maybe look for flashes in a dark garage), and plugs (incorrectly gapped)
3. Temp sensor (could make the engine think its warm when its not and not dumping enough fuel)

If none of this works you said you weren't making boost (limp mode), this could be something much worse is happening  and I'd try the following
1. Compression test
2. If weak test <120psi in any cylinder or all of them; you should do a leak down test

If none of this turns up anything you're more then welcome to borrow my evo scan and we could try a deeper dive.

I did just dump half a can of seaform for 15L of fuel I think there is a slight difference but it's very vague.
I doubt it the coils because it idles very smooth and boost VERY hard without hesitation or misfire, but I will check it out as well as a compression test.

I read on other forums if it was my temp sensor the fans would come on.

I have evoscan 2.9, but I get a error when trying to log. I'm using the tactrix 2.0 cable


Offline mojikita

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2013, 11:04:41 PM »
so I still have to reset the ecu -

Have you tried turning the key to the ON position and waiting 10-15 seconds before you start cranking? I've read (and experienced) that the ECU takes some time to read things after a reset. There were times I'd reset it then forget about the time lag when I next started it. It would crank over way longer before it started. If I turned it to ON and waited it would start normally.

Offline SausageCat

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2013, 01:23:13 AM »
I believe that is true on newage WRX.

Back to the simplest cause: spark and fuel

- Get an inline spark plug tester ~ $20
- Fuel pressure gauge ~ $20

Oh, yes... and reset ECU
http://www.perth-wrx.com/vb/stock-ecu-discussion/30025-gc8-engine-control-unit-reset-proper-way.html

Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2013, 03:48:44 PM »
so an update - I replaced the coil with no help, and not too convinced that it could be leaking/sticky injector because the car will NEVER flood after all those cranks.

If I turn the key on the "ON" position for 20 + seconds my car will ALWAYS start good.

Also, my fuel pump behaves oddly - when the key is on the "ON" position I will hear it turn on for a second after  I can't hear it.

a few other people told me that my fuel return check valve is faulty, does anyone know where I can find the check valve on a JDM gc8 ?

Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2013, 01:35:33 PM »
Here is a video of the fuel pressure test. I put the key on the "On' position and you can see that the pressure will spike up to normal 3 psi, but instantly drop. Where is the goddamn fuel return check valve !!!!!!   >:(


Offline RickDaTuner

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2013, 02:40:19 PM »
Place the fuel pressure gauge before the fuel filter, the pinch of the use heading towards the fuel rail, if the reassure gauge stays steady after priming then change the FPR check valve, if it still drops, replace the fuel pump.

When you go to start the car, cycle the key from off to on 3 times before turning it to crank, it should help in the interm.

Long cranks like that constantly will sulphate your battery over a short period of time.

Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2013, 03:13:48 PM »
Place the fuel pressure gauge before the fuel filter, the pinch of the use heading towards the fuel rail, if the reassure gauge stays steady after priming then change the FPR check valve, if it still drops, replace the fuel pump.

When you go to start the car, cycle the key from off to on 3 times before turning it to crank, it should help in the interm.

Long cranks like that constantly will sulphate your battery over a short period of time.

Hi,

The gauge is before the fuel filter in the video, I already replaced the FPR and swapped a used working fuel pump.

What do you mean by the FPR check valve ? Where would I find this on a GC8 ?

Thanks

Offline Jesse.Korpan

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2013, 10:06:04 PM »
This crap is starting to happen to me also. I'll try a few things this weekend. My battery is pretty old to so I figure maybe the rain and freezing temps this week are planning havoc with stuff.
Odd question but are your hood vents open or closed ? Probably nothing to do with the problem just thinking out loud.

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Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2013, 10:08:05 AM »
I talked to a subaru tech and he says the fuel pressure dip after the spike is normal,

I really don't know what to do because I've changed everything fuel related except injectors and everything spark related except the ignitor.

Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2013, 10:20:56 AM »
This crap is starting to happen to me also. I'll try a few things this weekend. My battery is pretty old to so I figure maybe the rain and freezing temps this week are planning havoc with stuff.
Odd question but are your hood vents open or closed ? Probably nothing to do with the problem just thinking out loud.

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They are just standard V3 hood vents.

Offline Jesse.Korpan

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2013, 11:25:20 AM »
Yea but do you have the vent covers off or are they still bolted to the hood ?

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Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2013, 12:08:32 PM »
Yea but do you have the vent covers off or are they still bolted to the hood ?

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yes they are bolted on the hood

Offline RickDaTuner

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2013, 02:57:20 PM »
You will need to pinch the middle hose of the three located just past this fuel filter before the fuel rail.
The bottom hose is the Evap lline, and the top one is the fuel feed directly from the filter.

Block that middle line before the fuel rail and have the gauge installed before the fuel filter.  Prime the fuel pump, then pinch the fuel feed line before the gauge. You should have a steady pressure reading on the fuel gauge. If you see a drop then it's a leaky injector.

The check valve is not part of your cars build, I had to go back and see if there was one, but your impreza has a fuel return line, the check valve is needed on return less fuel systems.

Post a a video of the gauge reading while you crank as well.

If trying these two things it leads you no where, then you are looking at a wiring issue. My best guess would be either the connector or wires that lead to the cam crank sensors.

If you want check for resistance or an open for those circuits then you'll need a multimeter along with ECU + cam/crank wiring and pinouts. Your multi metere should read no resistance, but can be as high as 3 ohms. anything higher than that and you have a bad connection or bad wires


Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2013, 03:31:11 PM »
You will need to pinch the middle hose of the three located just past this fuel filter before the fuel rail.
The bottom hose is the Evap lline, and the top one is the fuel feed directly from the filter.

Block that middle line before the fuel rail and have the gauge installed before the fuel filter.  Prime the fuel pump, then pinch the fuel feed line before the gauge. You should have a steady pressure reading on the fuel gauge. If you see a drop then it's a leaky injector.

The check valve is not part of your cars build, I had to go back and see if there was one, but your impreza has a fuel return line, the check valve is needed on return less fuel systems.

Post a a video of the gauge reading while you crank as well.

If trying these two things it leads you no where, then you are looking at a wiring issue. My best guess would be either the connector or wires that lead to the cam crank sensors.

If you want check for resistance or an open for those circuits then you'll need a multimeter along with ECU + cam/crank wiring and pinouts. Your multi metere should read no resistance, but can be as high as 3 ohms. anything higher than that and you have a bad connection or bad wires

Instead of blocking off the middle line before the fuel rail can I just pinch it like the fuel feed line before the gauge?



Offline gc8guy

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Re: Trouble starting - cranks too many times JDM EJ20K
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2013, 04:31:54 PM »
Instead of blocking off the middle line before the fuel rail can I just pinch it like the fuel feed line before the gauge?

So I pinched the middle hose with a set of pliers, got my friend to put the ignition on the "On" position, and pinches the fuel line going to the gauge right before the fuel filter and the pressure did drop.

I was told if I would have a leaky injector my car would flood. My car no matter how many cranks never floods.