Topic: Insanely narrow rules for FS ads

[Morison]

So, I've apparently run afoul of the rules for the members marketplace and my ad deleted.
It doesn't really matter since in the short time the post survived, the item was sold, I was offered much more than I expected to get for it and the buyer just picked it up and paid much less than he offered for it.
So, at the end of the day two members put together a deal where both parties were happy and satisfied yet the ad that facilitated this was pulled because it didn't meet a very narrow set of rules.

I know we're at the whim of the moderators and I know topics like this don't usually end well, but I'm genuinely curious about the need to control posts so tightly.

1. All marketplace thread titles must begin with "FS: ", "FT: ", or "WTB: " and must contain the item name. Thread titles like "*MUST SELL NOW*" will be deleted. Multiple item sale threads must at least contain a general description, such as "Garage sale: 02-07 impreza parts"

Funny that the example doesn't follow the general requirement. Shouldn't it be FS: Garage Sale 02-07 impreza parts?
Is there something particularly unclear about 'Must Sell Now' that means it should be banned?
Is 'For Sale or Trade' somehow more troublesome than FS:/FT:?

2. All "For Sale" threads MUST INCLUDE: (Copy the below format if you wish)
Description: Accurate description of item and its current condition (possibly a cross reference of which cars the item will fit, if you know)
Location of seller:
Willing to ship:
Method of contact:
Price:
Pictures: A quality picture of the item (blurry upside down iphone pic not allowed) http://www.westernsubaruclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=12481.0

A lot of this makes sense, but why draw a hard line on price and pictures.
I think the inclusion, or not, of a price will impact the success of the ad anyway. But, as just happened - I had something I wanted to sell more to get rid of it than to get a certain dollar amount back out of it. If I wanted 'offers' it could have turned into a great deal for someone who was looking for it...
Pictures will help sell items but really, many of the items being sold will either look identical to every other similar item or would need further inspection in real life before the deal is done. Better would be a requirement that any pictures be of the actual item for sale, not a catalogue picture of the item in general.

3. No “Testing Waters” or "Feeler" posts. If you‘re going to post an item, please have the intention of selling it. If you don't know what the item is worth, do your research. All else fails, put a random price of what you would like to receive for it, and the market will take care of it. (eg. If it doesn't sell, your price is too high)

I can see this, to a degree, but an all out ban on this is once again excessive. Who does it hurt? Why should it be banned?

4. Discussion of price should be done via PM. Negotiation of price by people intending to purchase should be done via PM. Criticism of price should be done respectfully and must include evidence. (related forum ads, kijiji ads, etc)
Posts like "Are you crazy?" will result in deletion and possible points.

Agreed

5. Thread bumping is limited to once every 7 days, and may only be done by the seller/buyer.

Define thread bumping? Having friends ask seemingly legit questions every day would be OK?

6. Unrelated posts such as "GLWS" and "wish I had the money" will be deleted, and points will be issued. Interpretation of an unrelated thread bump is at the interpretation of the moderators. Trending will be taken note of. If you are in the habit of posting in FS threads without ever buying anything, it will be noted.

Because, yah - we can't have conversations in an online community. For some people this is the only form of contact with real people they get!

7. Marketplace threads with no activity for 30 days or more may be locked.

What harm is there in keeping them open?

Any violation of these rules will result in points and/or post moderation and/or deletion without explanation. If you find yourself in this situation, please review the rules.

Do people REALLY have enough time on their hands to enforce rules that don't seem to have any real value or do anything for the greater good?

[rith]

I took this up with my MLA and he didn't care either

[RS 99]

I agree with morison specially about pictures I don't have computer use my ipad all the time and getting pictures on one site first to host them and after have them on here I tried never been able to figure it out.... I have items i would sell but no point posting them as it will be closed with no pictures

Matt

[canehdianJ]

I support snackers draconian rule.  It makes the market place a far easier place to be

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

[Rick]

I agree with morison specially about pictures I don't have computer use my ipad all the time and getting pictures on one site first to host them and after have them on here I tried never been able to figure it out.... I have items i would sell but no point posting them as it will be closed with no pictures

Matt

I use tapatalk 2 and posting pics isn't too hard you just have to make an account on tapatalk and they host your pics. I gave up on posting pics too but now it's way easier.

[THE EDJ]

The insanely narrow rules make navigating and looking through ads much easier and in my opinion, better. Having a defined format makes it easy to find the info you are looking for; it's always going to be in the same place. I think all ads should have photos of the actual item. We live in a day and age where this is easy to do. It might seem like a hassle, but it's actually a simple process, and you know what? It's going to benefit you, the seller, the most. I don't even look at an ad if there aren't photos. I'm on the Internet looking at something I might be interested in buying. I'm not going to actually leave my house and drive somewhere to go look at something based on a written ad or a phone call. Pictures are necessary when buying/selling online.

[pistachoo]

Morison, thank you for taking the time to voice your thoughts.

You've been a member here since March 17, 2008, so I won't bother reminding you of WSC's tumultuous history with regard to Marketplace moderation; you should already be familiar with it.

The discussion over Marketplace rules went on over several months, and those members who had strong opinions were able to share these before the rules were drafted. We based the current set of rules on trends we noticed over previous years, suggestions put forth by members who participated in the Marketplace rules discussion threads (there were several), and on what we felt we would be able to handle as moderators.

We continue to take constructive feedback into consideration, although this does not in any way mean that every person who offers feedback should expect rule changes as a direct result! Nevertheless, should the obvious need for revisions become apparent, we will act accordingly.

Rest assured that the enforcing of the current rules is not at present a hardship for our Marketplace moderator, though we do appreciate your concern.

[pistachoo]

I agree with morison specially about pictures I don't have computer use my ipad all the time and getting pictures on one site first to host them and after have them on here I tried never been able to figure it out.... I have items i would sell but no point posting them as it will be closed with no pictures

Matt

Matt, I don't have an iPad, but I do have an iPod touch, so, pretending I have a very girly scooter for sale, I tested out using Photobucket, screenshotting each step.



Voila:

This adorable cherry-blossom-and-pin-up-girl decorated scooter is not in fact mine (alas!); I pass by it every morning when I walk my dog.

If you click on the thumbnails, you'll see each step for using the Photobucket app on iOS. You'll also notice it took me a total of 7 minutes from opening the Photobucket app to clicking on "Preview" in WSC. It took me this long because I hadn't actually done it before; documenting each step probably also added about an extra 30s in total. With practice I could likely do it in less than 5 mins.

The steps will be similar for any online photo hosting service that has an iOS app available. Add a few minutes for installing the app if you don't already have it on your device.

[ZiG]

I use the imgur app for easy uploading from my phone. Consider uploading pictures an intelligence test and if you can't figure it out on whatever device you are using, well,

[GrantC]

Thanks for the input/comments.  These rules were shaped by requests/comments from the membership at large, so of course we'll tweak them based on the same.

But, in my opinion, pictures of the actual item & a stated asking price are both vitally important to a serious FS ad (and can help prevent fraud/misunderstandings) and as such I don't see those particular rules changing.

[Morison]

It's all good.
I just am not a fan of over regulation backed up by mindless enforcement.

Like I said at the start of my first post on this subject, my ad didn't meet the rules and got nuked but not before someone arranged to buy one of the exhausts listed for less than he offered and I sold something effectively in hours that was just sitting around.

I understand the desire to set some ground rules, I do, but I'm just saying I think they've gone too far, assuming WSC is a civilized society. (perhaps a big assumption)

FWIW: I agree that price and pix makes ads more effective. Everyone SHOULD include them, but there is a big gap between should and an enforced must.

[pistachoo]

"Should" wasn't working. As for the rest of the rules, they're not rules if they're not enforced consistently. This is a lot easier than having to deal with "report to mod" link mashing, complaints, thread-jackings, price discussions degenerating into verbal abuse, and the various other reasons mods were called in to clean up threads, under the previous free-for-all "should" system. Clear rules and consistent consequences takes less time to manage and maintain than having to do damage control at random moments when things explode.

[rith]

Then whence cometh Snackers from above the earth to smite thee FS ad...

[Ambystom01]

Really, you think these rules are insanely narrow? they're lax compared to the rules on many other forums. People had an opportunity to contribute to the rules months ago. Lets go through your points anyways.

1. The rule is clearly so people know what the reason for the ad is before they open it. It's not unreasonable to expect people to post something indicating whether they're selling a part or looking to trade.

2. Price is for the good of the community. Posting a price means that both the buyer and seller know what they're dealing with, and other parties know what kind of price to expect to pay for a given part. Pictures are again for the good of the community. It protects the seller because it means there is proof of the condition of the part before it was sold and it protects the seller because they know what the part actually looks like before they offer any kind of price.

3. Testing waters and feelers are stupid. Decide if you want to sell a part before you post it for sale.

4. Good.

5. You know what thread bumping is. It's obvious. You're not a child or an idiot. I assume this was a rhetorical question.

6. What discussions are you referring to? Do you really think someone posting "GLWS" or "I wish I could afford this" will lead to a meaningless and useful discussion? This kind of post is just electronic shaft stroking. It's verbal diarrhea combined with "I want you in and around my mouth".

7. Why keep them open? Closing them prevents people from accidentally bumping them months or years later. It happens.

Your general conclusion is flawed. Snackers does a good job of keeping the FS forums clean and in check and frankly, your argument could extend to forum moderation in general. It also isn't a logical progression nor is there really any premise for it. You're assuming your conclusion before you've proven it. While it would be nice if things could run smoothly with no rules, that's unrealistic.

[Wheelhop]

Alrighty, I've tried to post an ad twice now and its been deleted. This last time I realised I forgot to say whether I would ship. I go back four minutes after posting, which writing my ad took 15 minutes, and my ad is gone.
I have no use for this site anymore, I don't think I'll be back. Not worth the trouble.

[Ambystom01]

Alrighty, I've tried to post an ad twice now and its been deleted. This last time I realised I forgot to say whether I would ship. I go back four minutes after posting, which writing my ad took 15 minutes, and my ad is gone.
I have no use for this site anymore, I don't think I'll be back. Not worth the trouble.

OK, there's the door.

[snackers]

Alrighty, I've tried to post an ad twice now and its been deleted. This last time I realised I forgot to say whether I would ship. I go back four minutes after posting, which writing my ad took 15 minutes, and my ad is gone.
I have no use for this site anymore, I don't think I'll be back. Not worth the trouble.

That was not why your ad was deleted.
But feel free to leave. That's your choice, just like it was your choice to not spend a few minutes reading the rules of the community.

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

Alrighty, I've tried to post an ad twice now and its been deleted. This last time I realised I forgot to say whether I would ship. I go back four minutes after posting, which writing my ad took 15 minutes, and my ad is gone.
I have no use for this site anymore, I don't think I'll be back. Not worth the trouble.

I thought it was because you linked to kijiji instead of posting actual pictures.

[Wheelhop]

Ah, thanks for being helpful, rather than not helpful LDS.

[GrantC]

Ah, thanks for being helpful, rather than not helpful LDS.

They were deleted because they didn't have any pictures, and were just links to your kijiji ads.

We have a template right in the rules, so you don't miss necessary items.

[Morison]

This is pretty much what I'm talking about.
Once a ruleset starts hindering meaningful participation rather than fostering it I think it needs to be reconsidered.
Including pictures, price, location, ship or not, etc. are all best practices for effective ads, but if I want to skip a point or two at the risk of having a 'lesser' ad isn't that my own prerogative?
A rule that is missing, and probably more important, is 'you must legitimately own the item you're selling.'
Personally, I'd have thought links to a Kijiji ad that has pictures would have met the test of having pictures. It isn't like WSC is taking a commission or losing out on exposure by linking to Kijiji is it?
I can't help but get the feeling that whoever is spiking the ads is gettiing some sense of enjoyment from doing so, and that is wrong.

[Ambystom01]

This is pretty much what I'm talking about.
Once a ruleset starts hindering meaningful participation rather than fostering it I think it needs to be reconsidered.
Including pictures, price, location, ship or not, etc. are all best practices for effective ads, but if I want to skip a point or two at the risk of having a 'lesser' ad isn't that my own prerogative?
A rule that is missing, and probably more important, is 'you must legitimately own the item you're selling.'
Personally, I'd have thought links to a Kijiji ad that has pictures would have met the test of having pictures. It isn't like WSC is taking a commission or losing out on exposure by linking to Kijiji is it?
I can't help but get the feeling that whoever is spiking the ads is gettiing some sense of enjoyment from doing so, and that is wrong.

So if we have a rule that you can't post nude photos, and it prevents someone from posting nude photos, it's bad? That's the logic of your argument. Naturally, some people will run afoul of the rules. The rules aren't about them, they're about the community benefit.

The rule you speak of is unnecessary because legally you cannot sell something you don't own. That's a matter best left for the courts, not WSC, to monitor.

[Unoriginalusername]

He said meaningful participation, not orwhaying oneself out.

The rules are helpful, but if someones ad is being deleted because they don't state if they will ship or not, is a little crazy.

The template is easy to follow, and people should be just copy and pasting the template, but people shouldnt get so butthurt when they get called out on the rules. Honestly fix the problem then repost the add. In the amount of time it takes you to write these stupid ,rules suck post, you can have fixed the ad and had it up and posted.

[Ambystom01]

OK, define meaningful participation? The guys who post poor FS ads are usually brand new members with little to no posts who don't participate much after they've sold whatever it is they're trying to sell.

The rules are there to address problems. Naturally, because there is a perceived problem, some people will break those rules. You don't make rules to stop people from doing things they aren't doing anyways. To say that because the rules are being broken, they're bad, misses the entire point of having rules and logically doesn't make sense.

[pistachoo]

This is pretty much what I'm talking about. ... needs to be reconsidered. ... isn't that my own prerogative?... Personally, I'd have thought ... I can't help but get the feeling that .... that is wrong.

As usual, you and everyone else are welcome to your opinion and feelings, and are even welcome to share these. However, the time for weighing in on how the Marketplace was to be moderated is long terminated, so please do not expect these opinions and feelings to change anything just because you aired them out so generously.

Furthermore, if you are advocating a case-by-case basis for moderation, that's going to open a whole can of worms filled with "why was my post deleted and not his?" We are not willing to waste our time on such frivolous damage control when it can be completely avoided by fairly enforcing the rules across the board in the Marketplace. This is why rules were created in the first place: to simplify the process and make things transparent and easy to deal with.

TL;DR: Stop whining and read the rules. They are there for reasons.