Topic: Rust Conversion

[Claw]

You seem to know a lot about rust prevention and fixing existing rust condition.. how about a handy "DIY Guide to Fixing Rust" post somewhere so some of us less-edumacated can do what you're doing?

[Asstuna]

You seem to know a lot about rust prevention and fixing existing rust condition.. how about a handy "assay Tuna's DIY Guide to Fixing Rust" post somewhere so some of us less-edumacated can do what you're doing?

This vonscoobie guy seems to know his itshay, so whenever he posts something about rust I pay attention. That thread link has several posts from him. seat safety switch has this fetish for rust buckets so he's someone I pay attention to as well (don't tell him as I don't want him to think he's useful or anything).

During my research for the stuff below I found this website http://autobodystore.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?5-Rust-Repair

My story - I'm a bit of a novice, but it all started years ago when I used to use a product back home called Ranex Rustbuster. This product is basically phosphoric acid which is used as a rust conversion process and has been around for decades:

converts rust from a detrimental oxide to a beneficial phosphate of iron, chemically destroying any rust present and leaving the surface in a suitable condition for painting when completely dry

I'm not a panel beater, nor a painter, I just want to stop the rust from progressing any further. You can coat rust with something to prevent the oxidation process from continuing but ultimately it will wear off or get scrubbed/washed off. I intend to; i) scrub off as much loose rust as possible, ii) convert the oxide, iii) and then coat it to further hinder the oxidation process.

The products you see in the photos re-linked below:
- SEM Rust Mort is a phosphoric acid based rust converter. It needs to be coated.
- Zero Rust is an oil based modified alkyd enamel, and I thought I would give it a try. Apparently it's UV sensitive.
- Clear POR-15 is a polyurethane coating. Also UV sensitive and not the best surface for painting over. I thought I would give it a try.
- Spray Fluid Film is a Lanolin based soft gel coating. You can get into all sorts of places with this stuff. I consider this a preventative spray. I thought I would give it a try, but I don't think it comes close to:
- Eastwood Internal Frame Coating. There is all sorts of advertising hype about this product which I'm still filtering through. It claims to convert rust, but the chemist in me is looking for the reaction. This stuff appears to be the bomb for internal panel/crevice protective coating.

Even though they say you can, I would never apply any of these coating products over rust without first removing as much rust as possible and then converting the rust. You can spray paint a turd but it will still be a turd underneath - the same applies to rust.

These products obtained from KMS (Calgary):


Spray Fluid Film found at Canadian Tire:

[seat safety switch]

POR15 can be painted over iff you apply the POR15 tie coat primer first. It is a terrible idea to paint directly on POR15 as you've said.

One thing I found recently that works great as a rust converter is Corroseal. It's intended for use on like yard furniture and the like - you can get it at any Cloverdale Paint. It's the rough equivalent of Rust Mort, but it's cheap and available at "normal people" stores. A friend in Edmonton who works on rust buckets turned me onto it - he ground off all the paint on his FC, Corrosealed any surface rust and then did a homebrew paint job in his garage that's still holding up today, five years later.

When I did my rockers, I found weak points by using the "pick" part of my wire brush set to knock holes in the rockers, then bondo'ed the appropriate holes (will weld later). I used the wire brush (and a wire wheel where appropriate) to clean off any 'crusted on' rust.

Then I applied Marine Clean to degrease and dewax the area I was about to paint - this is critical, and this is where most people applying POR15 or the like screw up. There is a ton of dirt that you never see that's embedded in the paint even when you've "washed" the car, especially on factory undercoat. If it's not clean it won't adhere - and it usually won't adhere unless the surface is rough either. I figured the rock miasma and factory undercoat was enough roughness to adhere to, but briefly brushed over with 3M scotchbrite pads before the cleaning to make sure.

I sprayed the Eastwood interior frame coating inside the rockers basically willy-nilly (it's difficult to figure out where it ends up) until it started leaking back out the other side towards me.

After waiting for it to seal up, I'd then spray some Fluid Film or other high-solids wax product, but didn't do that because I didn't know of its existence when I was doing the rockers this summer.

Finally we applied another dose of Marine Clean to the outside to make sure we got everything, then I applied asphalt undercoat to the entire mess to make sure I actually got the job right, and clearcoat over the seam between the asphalt undercoat and the body to make sure it didn't get pried up and flaked off (I chicken-lifted off the clearcoat spray and made runs and also missed a large section of the rear seam, so I need to redo this and touch it up again this summer to make up for a missing flake) that blew off when I hit it with a high pressure car wash last week.

Note that my daily driver TS still has massive rear quarter rust - I splashed some Corroseal without cleaning first onto it just to see what would happen and it all came off in a giant gluey sheet a few weeks afterward. The rockers are, knock on wood, pretty good lookin' still.

The rear quarter needs to be cut out and new ones welded in.

[Asstuna]

time for a thread split

[GrantC]

time for a thread split

Done.

[KennyB]

If you wan't to clean up the rust as good as you can before treating it and have a small air compressor these are the cats assay.

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

Ugh. All this thread does is remind me that the paint around my gas cap is starting to rust.

[Asstuna]

If you wan't to clean up the rust as good as you can before treating it and have a small air compressor these are the cats assay.

Kenny, you gotta start linking where to find this stuff locally. I'll update my first post with source comments

[seat safety switch]

IIRC I've seen that at Princess Auto.

[KennyB]

I got mine which is that exact one shown from my Mac Tools distributor that comes to work but I'm sure they can be found online for cheaper. I believe princes auto does have a version of that they sell as well. Most of the brand name stuff I buy that I don't get from the Mac or SnapOff guys that come to work I will buy from KMS tools, they have a pile of awesome stuff and decently priced. Obviously more expensive then shopping at PA but much better quality if you plan on using it lots and want it to last or just appreciate better quality tools.

[Asstuna]

Spray Fluid Film is also available at NAPA for $10.99, compared to Canadian Tire $14.99

Also, there are reports that Rust Bullet outperforms Rustoleum:
Start around post #9:
http://autobodystore.com/forum/showthread.php?11872-Zero-Rust-is-nothing-more-than-a-Rustoleum-type-paint

http://www.rustbullet.com/

[seat safety switch]

I've been told that Chassis Saver is cheaper and easier to apply than POR15 too.

[Tremor]

Princess Auto sells "similar" versions of that blasting gun for cheap. '
http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Abrasive-Blasters/Comfort-Grip-Gravity-Feed-Abrasive-Blaster-Gun/8059966.p

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Abrasive-Blasters/18-oz-Hopper-Gravity-Feed-Abrasive-Spot-Blaster-Gun/8140709.p

as well as a little more expensive on amazon
http://www.amazon.ca/Unitec-UNI007B-Speed-Blaster-Sandblast/dp/B000GTMI3M/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1395414702&sr=8-2-spell&keywords=speedblaster

[BuzSTid]

  didn't realize KMS had a store in Calgary now, on my way to check it out.

[Asstuna]

Spray Fluid Film is also available at NAPA for $10.99, compared to Canadian Tire $14.99

Also spotted Spray Fluid Film at Princess Auto for $14.99

[A.J.]

Anyone in Edmonton want to come and help me tackle some minor rust repair this spring? I was just going to sand it "smooth enough" and then use rocker guard and spray over with a colourmatch paint.

[GrantC]

Anyone want to give me a heads up on where to get a fibreglass scratch pen to clean out the surface rust on a couple rock chips on my a-pillars & leading edge of roof before I dab some touch-up paint in there?

[REX]

Anyone want to give me a heads up on where to get a fibreglass scratch pen to clean out the surface rust on a couple rock chips on my a-pillars & leading edge of roof before I dab some touch-up paint in there?

Any auto part store like NAPA or Partsource should be able to get you one if they aren't in stock. I got mine at Lordco.

[KennyB]

Anyone in Edmonton want to come and help me tackle some minor rust repair this spring? I was just going to sand it "smooth enough" and then use rocker guard and spray over with a colourmatch paint.

Depending on when I could probably give you a hand AJ.

Anyone want to give me a heads up on where to get a fibreglass scratch pen to clean out the surface rust on a couple rock chips on my a-pillars & leading edge of roof before I dab some touch-up paint in there?

I have them at work but not sure where to buy them individually, i'm sure KMS or something would have them. I'll see if I can find an almost used up one I can throw your way if you only need it for a few little spots.

[GrantC]

Any auto part store like NAPA or Partsource should be able to get you one if they aren't in stock. I got mine at Lordco.

I have them at work but not sure where to buy them individually, i'm sure KMS or something would have them. I'll see if I can find an almost used up one I can throw your way if you only need it for a few little spots.

K.  Thanks guys.  I tried & failed to find them at Can Tire with the touchup paint... And then I threw my hands in the air & ignored it for... oh, 5 months or so.

[A.J.]

Depending on when I could probably give you a hand AJ.

It'll be once it's "warm enough" to paint outside since I can't fit it in my garage.

[F1Eng]

So POR15 was purchased by another company and some of the main fellas didn't like where the new bosses were taking the company, so they started a new company called KBS Coatings. Same as POR15, it is a 3 step system. Step 1 - degreaser. Step 2 - phosphoric acid to neutralize the rust. Step 3 - sealing coating. The sealants come in a variety of colors, but if you want UV protection, you have to topcoat with their 'Blacktop' paint. The base system also has a clearcoat and tintable topcoat available. Supposedly the stuff is very similar to the POR15 system, but the sealant is a lot easier to use. I did the chassis on my ranger with POR15 so I know it can be a PITA. The KBS stuff is also about 3/4 the cost I would suggest using a quality zinc or copper primer (as below) between step 2 and 3, however, so that if you do have any spots where the paint is removed, the base metal can pull electrons from the primer, and not cause localized pitting due to the huge electronegativity difference.

[seat safety switch]

In my experience POR15 sticks really badly to anything that's not either bare rust or seriously acid-etched. Is that not the case with the KBS stuff?

Also, the stuff I've been messing with lately is called Formula 3000 - it's available at any Canadian Tire, and the Canadian army did a study on their vehicles as to which off the shelf rustproofing agent would protect it the best. Formula 3000 won. http://cradpdf.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/PDFS/unc53/p526285.pdf



It appears to be like Fluid Film, except it doesn't use any waxes, and contains a water displacement agent and a rust converter. I've had great success wiping off suspension parts, spraying it with this stuff, letting it soak in and then rubbing it clean with a shop towel. It supposedly (according to the can) also reinvigorates rubber bushings and weather stripping, but I haven't tried those applications. Not so great on painted stuff, like any rust converter (worse than Corroseal in many cases), and it gets everywhere before it soaks in and is super gross to touch.

I'm not delusional enough to think my rear quarters can be saved by anything you get out of a spray can at Canadian Tire, but it'll be nice to see if this at least prevents the corrosion from getting worse this winter.

[F1Eng]

The KBS stuff is similar, it still needs to be etched, but it apparently has easier coverage and isn't as fussy. I'll have to buy a can of this Formula 3000 to give it a try also over the winter, as I don't think I'll get to a proper undercoating before the snow flies.. If it's not wax-based how well does it stick and resist being washed off?

[seat safety switch]

The can claims (though I cannot verify, as it dries 'clear' and doesn't seem to have an obvious body or odour like lanolin wax) that it lasts for a year before it needs to be re-applied.

Based on what I've seen, I am thinking it's not so much a coating as something that creeps into the metal.

One thing it does do is attract bugs, everything I've sprayed it on has accumulated a fine coat of dead bugs within a day or two, which I then can wash off with a car wash pressure gun.