Topic: Canuckrz's 2004 Forester XT - Long Overdue (from laziness) Update

[Canuckrz]

About the clutch... I'm all for "upgrade to better parts while you're in there", except in this case.
Pick a brand you trust, sure.
Picking a stickier pad material? ("stage2") Just my opinion, but I wouldn't unless you immediately plan to do mods that drastically increase the power output from the engine that requires that stickier clutch.
The oem clutch has some "give". If you upgrade the clutch material, all you will be doing is transferring the shock further down the drivetrain. In this case, then next step is the gears in the trans.

Granted you already have some issues with your transmission, but do you want to have to replace broken gears too?
A "stage 2" clutch might not be as drastic as a 6puck, but I'd still consider the consequences of a stickier clutch on otherwise oem equipment (trans gears, driveshaft, all related bushings)

Its not entirely about material, but also the pressure plate and its clamping force.

If we're talking about shocks while the clutch is engaged where a shockload could exceed breaking threshold, through jolts or whatever when already under load else then yes I'd agree. But for the grab on modulation, I wouldn't entirely agree so long as one doesn't dump the clutch and cause a shockload that way. The exception to the grab on modulation would be the puck style clutches like you mentioned, that are more like on/off switches than a clutch (I hate puck clutches and lightweight flywheels with a passion, unless one is almost exclusively tracking the car and is making the power to actually require a puck clutch).

That being said how much is the OEM clutch actually good for?

[Canuckrz]

Well I finally got a price and availability quote from them, a little over 300 for all the bearings. Landing Wednesday. After them not bothering to call me back friday when they were pricing and checking out the availability of it, and calling them this morning and telling them to call me back only to have to call them again 2 hours later to find they already ordered all the parts without consulting me. Granted all the bearings they got from Subaru which I'm fine with, but poor practice none the less. Also now they're saying they wont be able to stick with their original 12 hour quote because of the shifter bushings I gave them, 3 bolts is all it takes to change them, I could do it in less than 5 minutes if I had the access to the tranny and undercarriage that they have.

More concerningly they went ahead and ordered a clutch for me without consulting me on my options. The clutch was available and returnable locally but the fact is they didn't bother to call me to talk over my options. The clutch is made by Luk, he says he talked with his distributor and its a clutch that has been "upgraded to OE" and is "better than aftermarket" but not HD or performance and has no rated torque with it. It retails for $830 or so and says he can give it to me for $660. I told him I can get in the Exedy for about $250, or the upgraded Exedy from Vex for $630 and they are the OE manufacturer for Subaru, but he went on to tell me that they'll basically fire in whatever I give them regardless of quality and that "I get what I pay for".

So, I went to the Luk website and there is only one clutch available for the Forester XT. I also double checked with the same year WRX and its once again one clutch, and the same P/N as the Fozzy XT as expected. The same clutch is available on rock auto for $235. But my concern is with how hes sounding (has a major case of different personality over the phone) it doesn't sound/feel like they will guarantee their work unless I buy their crazy overpriced clutch from them.

So now it feels like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. Also all the other stuff I wanted to get from Rock Auto is in the same warehouse as the Exedy, and not the Luk. Bad feels.


On a lighter more positive note I managed to pick up a minty cargo cover off kijiji.

[snackers]

I think that's pretty standard with any shop if you don't buy the parts from them.

Vex refused to warranty a timing belt job if you brought them the parts for significantly cheaper cost.
They'd do the work, but wouldn't warranty anything because they can't "trust" what you bring them.

[Canuckrz]

I think that's pretty standard with any shop if you don't buy the parts from them.

Vex refused to warranty a timing belt job if you brought them the parts for significantly cheaper cost.
They'd do the work, but wouldn't warranty anything because they can't "trust" what you bring them.

Indeed, however I feel like they're taking me for a ride price wise. I think the napa clutch is made by Luk, and my over the counter price is about $485, but they have no availability in Canada so that also rules out them sourcing the clutch from there unless they're putting in a N/A clutch. Also they're dealing with aftermarket anything so its not like bringing aftermarket parts to a dealership; also theres the aspect of what will they do if I literally bring them the same clutch they want to sell to me but $400 cheaper.

Right now I'm looking at all in $2700 if I get the clutch from them at their price.

I want to call them up and talk to them about this to hash out all the details, but the guy is a legit grouch over the phone vs in person no matter how friendly or professional you are and I don't want to give them cause to make the experience worse.

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

Same here, when I had Vex do my clutch. They would put in whatever I gave them, but would only warranty the work if I bought from them. Which was okay with me, so I bought the clutch through them.

[Canuckrz]

That's fair enough I guess, but at least what you got was likely an upgraded clutch and likely the same price or less than this Luk. Apparently Luk makes the OE clutches for some Toyota's but mostly euro cars, I can find little to nothing on them when it comes to people running them in Subaru's however. And they have a serious hate on for Exedy even though they can source them themselves.

[RWDragoon]

We try and stay competitive, but if we aren't let me know as well

For example Rallysportdirect
Exedy Stage 1 15802
$510.21US (about $578cad +GST)
Shipping UPS Expedited $49.34US (about $57cad +GST, and you skip the brokerage by not shipping ground)
Duty (made in Japan 6% of $578) = $35cad
Total $670cad +GST, we sell for $650 +GST and typically have them in stock or 1 day away. Plus we usually have re-machined flywheels in stock for $80 and your old flywheel exchanged. 

Exedy OE Replacement KSB03A $260cad +GST 1 day away.

[Canuckrz]

We try and stay competitive, but if we aren't let me know as well

For example Rallysportdirect
Exedy Stage 1 15802
$510.21US (about $578cad +GST)
Shipping UPS Expedited $49.34US (about $57cad +GST, and you skip the brokerage by not shipping ground)
Duty (made in Japan 6% of $578) = $35cad
Total $670cad +GST, we sell for $650 +GST and typically have them in stock or 1 day away. Plus we usually have re-machined flywheels in stock for $80 and your old flywheel exchanged. 

Exedy OE Replacement KSB03A $260cad +GST 1 day away.

Thanks for the price breakdown Ryan. I didn't know you could avoid paying UPS's INSANE brokerage fees by avoiding their ground shipping. I still would probably go out of my way to avoid using them just because of how many times they have absolutely bent me over for brokerage fees ($40 brokerage on a used no name catch can that I bought for $20 and was marked as such, and it wasn't the only time).

After weighing all my options and timeline I decided to go with the Exedy stage 1 from Vex. Grabbed some Motylgear for the tranny and Motul 300 for the rear diff while I was there. I'm probably going to pick up some Moores blast plates for the tranny to install at a later date, as now any time I drop anything off at the tranny shop or talk to them about doing anything differently I get the eye rolling and whatnot. I don't have any doubts that they will do a good job on the actual rebuild itself, I just don't want to deal with them more than I have to at this point because of the other stupid little things that they've done at this point and the general feeling I'm getting. I double checked with them and they will still guarantee all their work on the transmission itself, but obviously not the clutch which is fair enough.

I also got a package today from my auto parts stash out east containing my roll of b-quiet sound deadener, my TE06H Banks Sidewinder, and my N64 with mario kart.

[Rathburn]

Hahaha, you said tranny.

[Canuckrz]

Hahaha, you said tranny.

[Canuckrz]

Well called the transmission shop today hoping for good news, their parts apparently got "delayed" so now I wont see the Fozzy until next week. And once again more DILLIGAF from them over the phone. Which is pretty crap, considering I'm leaving Thursday-ish for work and there are still several things I need to pick up before hand that is a massive nuisance on transit. JFC I'm so sick and tired of being at the mercy of shops that I don't entirely trust.

On the bright-ish side I have some weather tech floor liners ordered that should be in Monday. There were a lot of reviews for the huskys on here, but I was very pleased with the WT's in my 4Runner so I figured I'd give them another go.

[Canuckrz]

Started looking into suspension and wheels and so fourth out of boredom since still no fozzy or anything to do.

I've discovered that the king lift springs for the WRX are the same part number as the lowering springs for the forester. Also king doesn't bother listing the actual heights or spring rates for any of their springs unless you contact them other than giving generalizations for all their springs in each category, which makes me a bit leery of using them if they don't seem to think that info is important enough to post. Not to mention there's no point in running WRX lift springs if they're the same damn thing as proper fozzy lowering springs anyway, unless there's some quantifiable advantage to their spring rates.

So I'm looking at 4 different options currently:

1.) Find busted fozzy struts, run koni inserts, order spacer and longer bolt to make inserts work in fozzy shock housing from mcmaster-carr, run fozzy specific swift springs.
2.) Find 04 STI struts, replace crap factory grease with good stuff, run fozzy specific swift springs.
3.) Find busted wrx shocks, run koni inserts, fozzy specific swift springs.
4.) Hurr durr coilovers, and maybe strut spacers on top.

Ideally I'd like to do 1 or 3, as adjustability is bueno and the inserts look pretty easy to do. And not as slammed and stiff as coilovers generally are.

The amount I need to lower the fozzy I still have to hash out, which effects which option I go with greatly. As I want to lower it as minimally as possible while still being able to autox. I also have to do more research into how the koni inserts effect the travel when using Fozzy lowering springs as I don't want something that will slam into the bumpstops all the time (no innuendo intended giggidy). The lowering should be able to be assisted with a wider tracked wheel setup, to make the wheel base wider so it can be taller.

Here is a thread on fozzyforum about swifts and koni inserts: http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f70/install-notes-koni-inserts-swift-springs-86658/



Rim wise, I'd like to stay 16's for the purpose of being able to use it on less than majestic roads whether it be up north or a mountain trip. However in the Fozzy's diameter once you go over 225 the tires vanish unless I go 17, not to mention performance tires in that diameter are rare in the first place. Too small to be SUV performance, too tall for passenger performance. But I suppose with superior AWD theres less reason to go wide anyway.

Style wise I kind of have a hard on for the Sparco Terra's or similar style. The Sparco's are cheap and made by OZ, they're not especially light but they're not boat anchors either. Color wise I'm thinking either gunmetal or white.



I can't seem to figure out how to remove/change the poll other than changing the text inside it which is driving me nuts. I was sure it use to be under attatchements and other options when you click modify on the first post but its not there anymore. Or maybe I'm blind hah.

Also I really need to get around to firing more pics on here and fixing the sizes of them as the forum code doesn't seem to support scaling.

[seat safety switch]

I did the Koni inserts with my WRX. As long as you get the bumpstop lengths right (you may need to trim a stocker) you should be good to go with minimal impact to ride comfort.

They don't like too much spring rate, but I'm assuming from the sound of it that the Swifts are one of those largely cosmetic spring setups that kinda sorta have a little extra stiffness. I'd give it a shot with stock springs first to see if you like the damping, and then tinker with aftermarket springs rather than change two things at once.

[10secdream]

I have my takeoff forester struts you can hack apart if you wish.

[Canuckrz]

I did the Koni inserts with my WRX. As long as you get the bumpstop lengths right (you may need to trim a stocker) you should be good to go with minimal impact to ride comfort.

They don't like too much spring rate, but I'm assuming from the sound of it that the Swifts are one of those largely cosmetic spring setups that kinda sorta have a little extra stiffness.

In regards to the spring rates from what I can find:

	Front Lbs/in	Rear Lbs/in
FXT OEM	118	157
FXT Swift	179	185
FXT King	148	196

However I'm reasonably sure the swifts are progressive vs the OEM being linear, so I'm not sure if the listed numbers for the swifts are peak or average or what. I'd say I need to dig more, but swift is pretty much the only manufacturer left for fozzy springs besides king, so my options are limited unless I trackdown old stock of whiteline springs or similar.

The king rates on the table are the guesstimate of what they should be off their generic claim of around 25% stiffer than stock from what I can find, but is in no way a guaranteed figure.

I'd give it a shot with stock springs first to see if you like the damping, and then tinker with aftermarket springs rather than change two things at once.

One of the main reasons I am doing this is for the drop for autox regs. Without the springs I don't think I will be near my goal. Added to it the additional costs for alignments and paying for the installation and so fourth twice. I'm reasonably confident I can modify and assemble the struts/inserts, but I have no where to install them on the fozzy itself.

My main concern right now is trying to decipher and understand is the differences between the OEM, swift, and impreza springs/struts, and how that relates to how to best install the inserts and what sort of actual drop it yields. Basically from what I'm seeing the distance from the bottom of the strut to the spring perch itself on the fozzy vs impreza is the same. The difference is the length of the continuous OD of the housing above the spring perch and the length of the actual dampener shaft itself.


Pic taken from here by Peaty: http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f70/impreza-struts-vs-forester-struts-difference-7607/

So theoretically if I cut the fozzy's housing down to the point where the insert seats on the bottom of the housing properly (without a spacer), there is no tangible difference between using FXT donor struts or WRX donor struts as the housing above the spring perch would be shortened to WRX length and the insert's shaft would make it the same overall length as the WRX strut as thats what it was designed for in the first place.

Where it gets interesting is if I use the fozzy's housing I have room to set the height of the dampener itself, as I have the option to not cut the top of the housing down all the way, and instead raise the insert higher in the housing using a spacer.

Where to cut it would be a simple choice if I were using WRX springs, as I wouldn't want it mounted any higher as the stroke of the insert was designed for the wrx so I'd lop it off and no spacer. However I am planning on using fozzy lowering springs, which are equivilent to WRX lift springs according to King springs catalog. These springs are designed for a different stroke than the WRX springs, especially being progressive.

Which gives me 4 options:
1.) Make it match forester strut length at the expense of travel, however the strut would have room to decompress when the full weight of the vehicle is not on it.
2.) Make it match WRX strut length which would theoretically give me more travel, but would increase the preload on the spring and limit the suspensions ability to decompress when the full weight is off of it.
3.) Split the difference between forester and WRX strut length by measuring the distance between the insert and the bottom of the fozzy housing, splitting the distance, and installing a spacer.
4.) Figure out how much the Swift springs actually compress when the full weight of the vehicle is on them on forester length struts, split the distance it compresses, and make the spacer based off of that.

In the forum link in the previous post they used a 3/4" spacer, I have to do more digging to comprehend how they came up with that spacer size to ensure it meets my needs so the struts have room to decompress while having enough travel so they don't bottom out constantly.

So much mix and matching, and jumping back and fourth from tab to tab on different threads, different specs for fozzys and imprezzas, its making my head spin.

I have my takeoff forester struts you can hack apart if you wish.

I might take you up on that offer once I get a more comprehensive game plan together.

[Canuckrz]

Well as usual the tranny shop wasn't calling me to give me any updates so I called them again. Turns out they didn't have all the bearings in. They're missing two that will be arriving tomorrow morning. FML. The tranny is apparently all together aside from these two bearings, and they're suppose to have a hoist set aside tomorrow to fire it all back in at least. Really coming down to the wire considering I leave Wednesday night for work and I still have a bunch of odds and ends to pick up.

Also a set of 04 sti BBS's popped up in the FS section with winter tires on that I likely would have pounced on had I not already put a deposit down on the Hakka 8's at Kal. Bah.

[Canuckrz]

As usual called the shop again as they never bother to call to update me even when they say they will. I got to talk to a different guy this time who I think was a tech, and was a lot better on the phone than the usual guy who I think is called Trey.

I managed to get a few things out of him:

1.) No I cannot expect my Fozzy today, and there's no guarantee tomorrow either.
2.) They still don't have the bearings and aren't sure if Subaru received them either.
3.) It turns out that like I suspected THEY forgot to order the 2 bearings that are being waited on.

I have to leave for work tomorrow and am still missing a bunch of important crap, the flight leaves at 4:30pm and I have to be there an hour ahead of time. Which reduces my ability to get the Fozzy before leaving to slim to none. It is going to be a miserable, busy next 24 hours.


At this point I really don't care how good of a job they do/did, I would never recommend dealing with them due to their unprofessionalism, crap customer service and communication, bickering about what parts I want on MY vehicle, and just the general attitude I get whenever I call them. None of that BS is an excusable even if they're a small shop. And obviously its not like I can take my vehicle elsewhere at this point and am still going to pay out the assay.

So. Much. Rage. I just want to drive my damn Fozzy.

[whintersan]

So lame Which shop has your Fozzy?

[10secdream]

I am sorry to hear that you had to deal with this bs. On a side note I can't believe how much they are selling the bearings to you for. Rally Subaru quoted me 160 for the 4 bearings.

[Canuckrz]

So lame Which shop has your Fozzy?

Dominion Automatic Transmission, they're a block away from Vex.

They had very good reviews on beyond, as well as on google, which is why I decided on them (also being a block away from Vex was handy, and ended up being useful several times). However I think I know what the issue is. On the outside of their door they had all those stickers for customer satisfaction/excellence awards from the city of Calgary. 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011... then nothing. On one of the times I was in someone called and asked for someone specifically and he said to the person on the phone that "________ hasn't worked here since 2012/2011" or something like that. So I think I know where all the good reviews came from and why my experience is such a stark contrast. Basically my theory is whoever made the place so good left, and now they're riding on the coattails of when they were actually good.

I am sorry to hear that you had to deal with this bs. On a side note I can't believe how much they are selling the bearings to you for. Rally Subaru quoted me 160 for the 4 bearings.

I fully intend to get a list of the bearings they replaced so I can be sure they didn't screw me like with the price of their Luk clutch. They said there was "quite a few" they needed to replace due to contamination, and I don't mind paying extra to replace more bearings if it means a more refreshed tranny, however that doesn't mean I'm willing to pay some crazy markup for them either.

[10secdream]

I am curious which bearings they are referring to. There are only 4 bearings in the tail section. Past that point you need to get into the transfer case and then the transmission itself....

[Rathburn]

I got to talk to a different guy this time who I think was a tech, and was a lot better on the phone than the usual guy who I think is called Trey.

Well there's your problem right there: dealing with a guy named Trey.

[Canuckrz]

Well I'm back from work and have reacquired the Fozzy (Thanks again James for picking it up).  So nice to drive it again even ridiculously mild manneredly because of clutch break in.

Total bill came to $2112.55 from the shop, the parts made up an oddly convenient looking 349.95 of that.

In total it looks like they replaced 7 transmission bearings. The rear transfer shaft bearings, the front diff carrier bearings, rear pinion shaft bearing, and a couple main shaft bearings. And replaced the seals that went along with them. I'll scan the diagrams they included later. They also installed the beatrush pitch stop mount, and kartboy shifter bushings, and refilled the rear diff as requested with my supplied parts/fluid.

The pitch stop added some NVH but seems to have stopped some of the drivetrain slop at slow speeds. The kartboy shifter bushings make a ZOMG difference, cant wait to install the shifter itself. The Exedy stage 1 is very very tolerable, granted its still in the earlier periods of break in so it could still go either way. The fluid choices seem to be fine, I can't see something making it amazingly better than it is now.

However this is where the "good" news ends. The R&R/Rebuild of the transmission was 12.0 hours labor, which was as quoted and is perfectly fine. However they charged me 3 additional hours labor to install the bushings, refill the rear diff, and to INSTALL THE CLUTCH. When that thing is on a hoist with the transmission out those bushings should take 5 minutes at best, and the pitch stop is only one extra bolt to remove and swap out vs the stocker which had to be disconnected for the transmission to be removed. The rear diff refill is again dick all to do. And INSTALLING THE CLUTCH, that is and they even said suppose to be basically INCLUDED with dropping the damn transmission in the first place.

Its already all paid for, and honestly I'm sick and tired of dealing with these jackoffs. But thats $330 for what should have been an extra half hour of work when I was already paying them gobs of cash for the transmission. I highly doubt even if I argued it that I would get any cash or compensation back, and even though there seems to be no issues with the job they did, if issues happen I don't want more BS in their ammo bag. I'm just mad, frustrated, and tired. I don't even know what to do/say really at this point. I could have bought a nice STI steering wheel instead.

[10secdream]

The good news is the forester is fixed and back on the road. It is unfortunate that they charged you so much for installing some bushings and topping up the fluid though.

I think the price is pretty fair to remove the transmission and replace 7 bearings though.

 

[Canuckrz]

Yeah, the 12 hours labor for R&R of the transmission is fair. Just them taking me for a ride with the extras left me with an even more sour taste. But the fozzy is back and better than ever.

Picked up a fair few parts today that were waiting for my arrival back in town. Pics will be up soon for them.

Picked up a used wrapped grimspeed crossover pipe, a new coated grimspeed up pipe, a new cabin air filter, and one of two of the stereo pockets that I need for an upcoming project where I mount the headunit on the top of the dash. All that came from lh0628, he had pretty much everything I wanted all for sale at once and a few others that severely tempted me (homelink mirror, new mudflaps, etc) but passed on.


Picked up my front weathertech floor liners, wow what a difference they make. It just makes the whole interior look and feel more put together. Got these from my buddy at Stampede Toyota as they owed me some money. Also found out that it turns out that I didn't have carpet rear mats, so I'm going to order weathertech rear mats as well as I'm selling whatever set of Subaru AS mats were in the Fozzy (but clearly not for a Fozzy).

Before(fail)

After(bueno though crappy lighting/flash)


Swung by Vex and picked up my FXT specific Kartboy shift lever from Jimmy. And confirmed that the KB shifter indeed does not come with the pivot bushings for whatever reason, so I got Jimmy to order in some TIC pivot bushings so I can install the lever in one go. I also got Jimmy to book me in to get the passenger valve cover gasket(s) replaced as the burning oil smell from it dripping onto the manifold was driving me nuts.



I ordered a few more things ass-well.

My phone fell between the damn gap between the seat and center console while I was navigating about 5 times today alone, so enough is enough and I ordered one of these:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/171356863879

I'm also going to order up a high amperage usb car charger and nice thick gauge micro usb cables:
http://www.amazon.ca/Anker%C2%AE-Dual-Port-Charger-PowerIQ-Technology/dp/B00D82O68Y/ref=sr_1_12?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1414111179&sr=1-12
http://www.amazon.ca/Anker%C2%AE-Premium-Android-Samsung-Motorola/dp/B00N8W00DY/ref=sr_1_71?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1414111222&sr=1-71

I will also be ordering up a custom knob from WC Lathe Werks shortly once I finally decide what I want. Right now I'm looking at either their hybrid sphere, elite vp, or equator elite knobs and then adding the extension. I'm still brainstorming the colors, sizes, engravings etc. I'd like it to blend well with the rest of the interior, while still looking damn good on its own. Any suggestions are welcome.
http://lathewerks.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=1_8_16&products_id=182
http://lathewerks.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=1_8_16&products_id=272
http://lathewerks.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=1_8_16&products_id=93
http://lathewerks.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=1_8_17&products_id=49