Topic: Stevens engine rebuild

[steven]

Goodby my love.  You have given me the best 156,898 kilometers i have ever driven.  You have journeyed with me through -40 blizzards and across scorching deserts.  We have climbed mountains and jumped potholes. 

Do not despair my love.  I have not given up on you.  Your knock will be fixed.  i will make you better. 
Stronger.
Faster. 
Louder.   

We will journey again.



I've been watching my Deffi oil gauge get lower and lower over the last year. it was down to about 8pis at hot idle three weeks ago and i thought it was time,  only needed another week,  even bought a engine hoist and stand.  I put on about 400km,  noticed the hot/idle rpm surging and oil psi bouncing between 0-8psi with it.  had to drive my girl to work before parking and checking to make sure it the problem wasn't worn spark plugs.   car developed rod knock 1/2 way to her work.   I walked my girl to work, and called a tow truck.

The subaru oil light didn't come on till it was too late,  no check engine light,  car didn't even throw a code.  towed to dealer to confirm problem, and do a full inspection,  no point having a new engine, on a worn out car.  towed car home and she it waiting for me to return.

Lesson learned.  aftermarket oil pressure gauge is a must,  because the idiot light didn't tell me nothing.  Just wish I had parked it a week sooner.

My current intent is to build something in the 350hp range  I don't race, but love the hard accelleration, power to pass on the highway, and being a dick on empty windy icy roads.  I have low experience with this sort of thing, but a decent amount of general mechanical experience.  I was a aircraft mechanic 10 years ago, and i think i can do this.

My current setup was:
3' belmouth high flow cated down pipe ,perrin
3" cat back exhaust- nameless (awesome sound)   
Air Oil Separator IAG
Accessport tuner with cobb stage two map
cold air intake, cobb  (0hp gains, but cool turbo sounds)
deffi oil pressure gauge
deffi boost gauge
high flow oil pump (tring to streach out this engine....didnt work)
new timing belt, gates
settings saver (car automatically goes to S# when started)

My current plans include:
fast spooling turbo with mid to high hp gains ( too many choices!!!!!)
fuel pump (255 walbro)
injectors (tuners choice)
head work,  replace all the worn bits, and flatten the matting surfaces. I'll let a pro do this bit.
new oil cooler
water pump
disassemble and clean avcs

I don't really know much until I get the engine torn apart, but I assume:
cast OEM pistons maybe,  undecided....  i know forged are stronger, but if the ringland problem is solved... than id rather have a built 100,000km cast piston engine, than a 50,000km forged piston engine.   because beside the ringland problem,  i haven't heard of cast piston failures.
fresh intercooler.  OEM or aftermarket (top mount,  cant do FMIC on a year round DD)
what else is needed?  do rods fail below 450hp? 



my unknowns are...
i would love to hone the cylinders, throw in new bearings and pistons,  and put the short block back together.  but is there block, crankshaft, or rod damage?,   the rods are easy to replace,  if its the crank or block,  i might just go with a IAG short block. 

are there any other supporting modes needed?


this is my first build and first built thread,  go gentle on me   lol
and how do i shink the picture to a decent size  lol.....
tried adding a L to the but no luck

[Dr Beans]

Questions:

1) Was this written on your phone?
2) Why did you wait so long when you saw oil pressure dropping?
3) Did the dealer dig into the motor at all? I'd be curious if it was a clogged or broken pickup, or if your oil pump failed.

[SlowLGT]

350HP at the crank, right? To get the car back on the road quicker, have less variables to deal with, and increase longevity, I would just replace the short block with an OEM short block. Have the heads checked and cleaned. With your list, add Killer B oil baffle and pick up tube, and fuel pressure regulator (important). And if you want quick spool, good gain, and reliability, you will hit your goal and have a lot of fun with stock turbo, ELH, and meth injection. Adding bigger turbo, injectors, etc. can be a real slippery slope. I've been to the bottom of that rabbit hole, while it was fun, it was also real expensive and not as rewarding as other engine platforms.Also, sounds like this is your DD and only car, so a responsive, reliable 350hp EJ25x is FAR cheaper and far less headache to build and maintain than a laggy 400hp EJ25x.

p.s. have you had any experience with LS engines?

[Mason]

For reliability/cost/time/effort/etc, why not look into IAG short block replacement?

Also Turbopartscanada ports oem turbos and can install an boost creep delete (suggested by Airboy). I talked to the guys at turboparts and they claimed that the oem turbo with billet wheel, anti boost creep, and porting would be ‘better and more responsive’ than upgrading to a slightly larger turbo.

What failed in the engine? I am curious if the AOS would be toast from possible metal getting into it?

[jellynuts]

2) Why did you wait so long when you saw oil pressure dropping?
3) Did the dealer dig into the motor at all? I'd be curious if it was a clogged or broken pickup, or if your oil pump failed.

I'm confused by this too...  Or did we just get SubaRay'd?   

I've been watching my Deffi oil gauge get lower and lower over the last year. it was down to about 8pis at hot idle three weeks ago and i thought it was time,  only needed another week,  even bought a engine hoist and stand.  I put on about 400km,  noticed the hot/idle rpm surging and oil psi bouncing between 0-8psi with it.  had to drive my girl to work before parking and checking to make sure it the problem wasn't worn spark plugs.   car developed rod knock 1/2 way to her work.   I walked my girl to work, and called a tow truck.

The subaru oil light didn't come on till it was too late,  no check engine light,  car didn't even throw a code.  towed to dealer to confirm problem, and do a full inspection,  no point having a new engine, on a worn out car.  towed car home and she it waiting for me to return.

Lesson learned.  aftermarket oil pressure gauge is a must,  because the idiot light didn't tell me nothing.  Just wish I had parked it a week sooner.

What was the lesson learned?  Was this a Defi Oil Pressure Gauge vs. Stock Oil Light experiment?  I'll try to be as gentle as possible but, being aware and watching the oil pressure drop for such a length of time and (seemingly?) not investigating the cause of it is like



Moving forward however, I wish you the best in the build and look forward to watching the progress. 

and how do i shink the picture to a decent size  lol

To shrink the picture, insert the letter "L" before ".jpg" in the hyperlink. 

Big pic = http://i.imgur.com/Zx04TbG.jpg

Small pic = http://i.imgur.com/Zx04TbGL.jpg

Also, siiick, that's my X5 in the pic.

[steven]

jumbled answers to questions....

this was not written on my phone,  i just don't re-read as often as i should.  this was typed in bed with a laptop balanced on my chest.  Not my best form.

the reason i waited so long,  is the general rule of oil pressure is 10psi per 1000 rpm,  at cold idle i had 10-15psi and 1000rpm.  i knew this had slowly been dropping to this point over a year,  but it was still working with no symptoms other than an aftermarket oil gauge hooked up at the port by the cams,  where the oil pressure is naturally lower.

the dealer removed the oil pan, found metal, removed the separator and confirmed #2 rod knock.

the Killer B oil pickup was designed for the older cars with cracking pickups.  i haven't heard of a car made in the last 10 years that had a OEM oil pickup fail.  but i will be looking into it before i rebuild. 

i think with my exhaust, intake and tune  i may have been near 350 crank HP before.   i am looking for a significant bump in power,  i don't know muck about meth , but don't like the idea of another fluid too top up. I'll research it tomorrow. goal is around 350 at the tires. 

while ELH do add a slight bit of both spool and HP,  I love the subaru rumble, and don't want to give that up. 

i have a beat up f350  and motorcycle to get me around till my baby is fixed,  and the girlfriends car which was broken in the garage when i drove her to work.  i do not have to rush this, and have the means to do this right.

I think you may be right about a OEM short block having everything i need to make the power i want.  there are many 400hp subarus out the on stock internals,  and i don't need that level of power.

i have priced out the IAG blocks, on their website and they seem to be a OK deal,  my only hesitation is sloppy forged pistons chewing up the engine block in cold weather.  forged piston builds have 1/2 the life of OEM blocks under normal situations.  Winter DD cars will be worse.  I need to get mine apart and check for other damage before i commit to anything,  and i need to talk to the local shops and see what works here.

[jellynuts]

the Killer B oil pickup was designed for the older cars with cracking pickups.  i haven't heard of a car made in the last 10 years that had a OEM oil pickup fail.  but i will stubbornly be looking into it before i rebuild. 

As far as I know, the pickup was designed for the EJ25, and Subaru hasn't really changed much with that platform. 

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=42043829&postcount=783
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/1767500-post3.html

i am looking for a significant bump in power,  i don't know muck about meth , but don't like the idea of another fluid too top up. I'll research it tomorrow. goal is around 350 at the tires. 

Meth will give that significant bump.  The benefits include, raising the octane rating so you can advance your timing, lower cylinder temps, cleans cylinders and provides gains are 40-50 ftlbs of torque. 

So got my car back from Vex after getting the Aquamist meth kit installed and tuned by Airboy.

So current set up is
Stage 2 with ELH and external wastegate
Aquamist Meth kit

Before the meth car did 262whp/300wtq

after meth car did 288whp/345wtq
(I will post up the dyno sheet)

Ryan at Vex said this is the highest TQ car they have done on stock turbo. He said I may have been able to do a bit more HP (highest on stock turbo they have done is 299whp) but when I had the external wastegate installed the internal wastegate was just unhooked and I guess  there is a little kit you can get that holds it shut. So they weren't sure if it may be opening a bit or not.

Really happy with the way the car pulls with the added tq.

[steven]

For reliability/cost/time/effort/etc, why not look into IAG short block replacement?

Also Turbopartscanada ports oem turbos and can install an boost creep delete (suggested by Airboy). I talked to the guys at turboparts and they claimed that the oem turbo with billet wheel, anti boost creep, and porting would be ‘better and more responsive’ than upgrading to a slightly larger turbo.

What failed in the engine? I am curious if the AOS would be toast from possible metal getting into it?

I am curious too.  i am hoping the oil filter worked, and kept the metal out of the engine.  i think the IAG AOS is fully cleanable.  i assume the oil cooler is on the dirty side of the system, and will need replacement.  i have a stock spare oil pump on the shelf.  so i don't need to reuse the high flow oil pump

if metal went everywhere i am not reusing the turbo.   otherwise thank you i didn't know about the porting option.  that is something to think about.  I'll talk to a tuner and see if that will get me close to my power goal.

I am thinking about putting in a IAG block.  i just figure that by the time i have the current short block stripped, i am only a dozen bolts from splitting it.   might as well have a look. 

i work week on week off up north, so waiting on parts isn't a big problem

[steven]

work day one.   
I have everything unbolted, but the transmission is stuck.  I covered the joint in penetrating oil and I am going to leave it overnight.
hopefully i have time to strip down the engine tomorrow, assess damage, and make a decision on rebuild, vs IAG short block.




edit,  it is loose,   but turbo might have to come off to get engine out!!!!    update tomorrow.

[jer]

I'm not questioning your ability but given the amount of times I've had motors in/out of subarus... just thought I'd drop a couple hints

- Make sure you've removed the pivot bar thing from the clutch fork
- If it has never been apart - the first time will be a PAIN to get the motor and trans split. Sometimes I've had to resort to a screwdriver (as a chisel) or air chisel to get it started
- Once they are apart sand down the alignment pins and file out the alignment holes a bit to help get it back together
 

[steven]

no problem,   i will be needing advice during parts of this build.

the clutch pivot has been removed
ive only spread the gap 15mm or so,  spent 45 minutes with a hammer and screwdriver,  gave yp,  then cane back to it with a sharpened putty knife, had it split in 10 seconds.  lol    then and gave up as the misses got home.  ill be pulling it out tomorrow. 

[steven]

Day two
4+ hours yesterday,  and about 5 minutes this morning and the engine is out!!!



i got it almost stripped down.  i could only get 1 AVCS bolt out.  My cheep impact did nothing. I jammed the flywheel and used the timing belt to hold the AVCS gears steady.  I got one, # 2 jumped teeth so i had to stop before i bent a valve., and on # 3 the 10mm bit got sideways and i stopped.  i need to find the tool for removing these.

 



i am out of time,  its going to be 3 weeks before i can touch this again. 
i guess it is time to start ordering parts.

[SlowLGT]

Those AVCS bolts are the worst. I used an old timing belt and a vise grip to hold the cam gears from spinning. Used a big breaker bar and an impact rated hex bit to take them off. When I was putting everything back in, I was leaning on the torque wrench trying to hit that 116 pound or whatever is specified. That was when that poor hex bit shattered into pieces. Make sure you have a hex bit that fits perfectly, otherwise you risk rounding off that hole, then you are in real trouble.

[funk32]

you could replace them with the TIC FU Cam bolts and I would recommend using the proper cam gear wrenches to hold them in place.

https://www.iagperformance.com/TiC-FU-Cam-Bolt-Kit-Dual-AVCS-Subaru-EJ25-STI-p/1001-03-0034.htm

https://www.iagperformance.com/TiC-FU-Cam-Bolt-Kit-Single-AVCS-EJ25-WRX-STI-p/1001-03-0033.htm

[jer]

Company23 makes specific tools for holding those gears while you use the breaker bar...
http://www.company23.com/subarutools

[deedz]

jumbled answers to questions....

the Killer B oil pickup was designed for the older cars with cracking pickups.  i haven't heard of a car made in the last 10 years that had a OEM oil pickup fail.  but i will be looking into it before i rebuild. 

I think you may be right about a OEM short block having everything i need to make the power i want.  there are many 400hp subarus out the on stock internals,  and i don't need that level of power.

i have priced out the IAG blocks, on their website and they seem to be a OK deal,  my only hesitation is sloppy forged pistons chewing up the engine block in cold weather.  forged piston builds have 1/2 the life of OEM blocks under normal situations.  Winter DD cars will be worse.  I need to get mine apart and check for other damage before i commit to anything,  and i need to talk to the local shops and see what works here.

Regardless of the Killer B pick-up being designed for the short comings of the older (GD) pick-ups, almost anything/everything you can do to improve oiling in your engine is highly beneficial to the longevity of the engine. I have currently three different Subaru's with the pick-up and baffle windage tray installed. They're well worth the expense. I simply upgraded all of the oil pans to the STi pan as well, being as it offers better baffling and drainage thatn the EJ207 (V7), EJ205, and EJ255 pans that my vehicles originally had. You obviously have an STi already so no worries there, but there are definitely superior options available too.

The OEM SB's have definitely been proven to handle a decent amount of power. The issue is always for how long. This is very dependent on the build quality, and how spirited of a driver you are on an average basis. If you're a HP hungry spirited driver the forged build is a better option because regardless of overall lifespan it will handle the abuse far better. Also, if you're just grabbing a OEM SB from Subaru, I'll worn that the bearing tolerances are typically not very consistent throughout the engine. This is obviously one huge benefit of having a SB professionally built.

In my opinion your best option was the IAG, but to each their own. I know of a few forged piston builds running as DD's in winter and other than some extra noise there hasn't been any issues like "chewing up" of the blocks. Again we go back to build quality and how the engine is treated in different situations. How is it stored in cold temps? How much does it warm up before raising RPM's and loading it up? How many times does it see WOT in -20 or colder? I will add that JE forged pistons seem to a lot noisier than Manley's on cold start-ups.

Company23 makes specific tools for holding those gears while you use the breaker bar...
http://www.company23.com/subarutools

I definitely second this! Great investment, especially if you plan to stay in the Subaru world. Touge Tuning can hook you up with these, and can typically get them to you quite fast.

That being said, maybe someone in your area has a set that they would lend or rent out. If I wasn't so far away I would let you use mine.

[steven]

Im Back.   

disassembly is complete enough till i get my new short block.



AVCS bolts were drilled out,   fast, easy, and cheeper than the tools.   or at least i had to drill one out,  and it went well,  so i did the other 2 stuck ones.   
heads are stripped down, and sent out for cleaning, inspecting, testing, valve adjustments as needed, and machining.  i expect that i have a problem as one of my exhaust valve lash was .004"    a lot too tight. and 1 broken stud on the exhaust avcs valve.   im not sure what i am doing about it yet.

i have one problem though.   what is this and what did it fall off of?
15mm OD, 13mm ID,  and found on the floor during disassembly.


some parts are here,  the rest of the parts are ordered.     
and i am back to the waiting game.

[VTAKLOL]

Those AVCS bolts are the worst. I used an old timing belt and a vise grip to hold the cam gears from spinning. Used a big breaker bar and an impact rated hex bit to take them off. When I was putting everything back in, I was leaning on the torque wrench trying to hit that 116 pound or whatever is specified. That was when that poor hex bit shattered into pieces. Make sure you have a hex bit that fits perfectly, otherwise you risk rounding off that hole, then you are in real trouble.

In addition to this, I use a small amount of valve grinding compound on the hex bit to further reduce the risk of slippage. Obviously make sure you clean the bolts out thoroughly prior to reinstalling.

[Flex]

so what did you decide, \iag shortblock or rebuild?

I just did a build this spring on my 12 STi.

[steven]

almost all my parts are in,   all except the short block.
i am going with a OEM short block, gone over checking ring gaps and clearances.   I am 1/2 convinced ring land failures are from tight rings.
i am keeping my old short block to speed up the next rebuild if necessary.

heads are back and mostly reassembled.  with a little paint to spruce them up.



the overpriced Subaru gasket kit appears to be missing the lower AVCS solenoid seals.  i guess i might be reusing them?   
Should i be using any kind of gasket sealant on these gaskets?  in my aviation days i used some sticky oily product, i didn't see anything when i took these off,   so they went on dry.   
I found a tiny oil filter in the second lower AVCS solenoid I installed,   just like the ones in the banjo bolts so the Passenger side one is coming off tomorrow to remove and clean it if it has one too.

[SlowLGT]

When I did my rebuild, I removed all of those little mesh screen filters. I decided to keep up with oil change schedule instead of risking oil starvation from clogged little filters.

[steven]

After i posted, i researched and saw that removing them is common,   I am going to keep mine in,   because of them I know the AVCS didn't get any metal from the spun bearing, so i don't have to pull them apart.  If they ever get clogged, I will get a code from the position sensor,   no damage. 
this also gives me a safety net, if the head cleaning/rebuild left any swarf in the head,   it wont get into the AVCS on startup.

the parts guy the the Subaru dealership talked me out of replacing the oil cooler,  said "oil passes straight through, its the coolant that cant be cleaned out.   Very easy to clean"   i took a close look at it today.   bullcrap,   ordering a new oil cooler today.

[steven]

short block arrived, and assembly has started.





i will update when more is accomplished.

I was hoping this would go a lot faster, but life got unpleasantly busy.  I got the rod knock the day after i put on summer tires,  and i fear that ill be putting on winters when i put it back on the road.

[tperkins]

Did you decide what you're doing for a turbo yet?

[steven]

All parts are installed,  engine was installed (3 times) and Lightspeed Innovations helped me with a break-in tune until it is ready for a dynotune.

the car as it sits
Lightspeed Innovations "rally spec 2.5L" short block
rebuilt and machined heads
ARP Headstuds
Tomei EL Headers
Tomioka GTX2971R Turbocharger
Perrin 3” hi-flow catted & divorced down pipe
nameless cat back exhaust, 3”
Cobb cold air intake
Cobb turbo inlet
Cobb accessport
TGV Delete
DW1050 injectors
DW65 fuel pump
Killer B -Oil Pickup
3 port boost control solenoid
IAG AOS
air pump delete

the fuel regulator will get changed just before dyno tuneing,  i will use the old style sti regulator and dampener. 

engine going in


first engine install i discovered both the new small block and trans. had alignment pins, no holes,   second time i had clutch engagement issues,   third time the charm.

i had a couple small leaks,  had to swap out the hose clamps,   and over-tighten a banjo bolt.  leaks are now fixed.

i put the stock mufflers back on so i can hear any engine problems during breakin.

Ill update HP and TQ when i get it tuned