Topic: Experience with high performance winter vs a more normal winter tire

[64bit]

Hey folks,

I'm at a crossroads on what to do with my winter setup on my new '18 STi and I could really use some actual local thoughts from other Western Canada folks.  I've been racking my brain with tire reviews and a bunch of forum posts and articles but most of the commentary I find regarding winter setups is based on US winters which honestly seem pretty tame compared to winters that we see in Canada.  I do a fair bit of driving between SK and AB and I enjoy going out to the mountains a few times a year.

I'm kind of at a point here where I see two options:

1) High performance winter tires on my stock rims for now and figure out a nice summer set up in a few months.  The tire I've consistently been recommended and seen good reviews for is the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 but I've never used a tire like this so I don't have any experience to draw on especially with respect to how it would handle a winter like we are currently seeing.

2) Buy a smaller rim (18 inch probably) and use a more conventional winter tire like an X-ice or Hakkas with a different profile (taller, narrower)

For the more high performance winter tires I've noticed when actually looking at and touching the tires, the rubber feels really stiff which I expected but I can't see that being very good in the cold or on ice but maybe I'm wrong on that?  But I'm also a bit concerned on how a more typical winter tire will behave on the occasions where the roads finally dry up a bit between snowfalls.  Also, I know having a higher profile tire is desirable in winter as well as a more narrow one.  However, I haven't seen any 17 inch rim put on this car anywhere I've looked that has fit well if at all. With 18s and getting maybe a 235/40 tire instead of 245/35, is the difference in profile really going to change much with such a small change?

So that's where I stand right now.  I know I need to just pick a setup and go with it which I'm prepared to do financially, but any personal experiences would be appreciated.  I really just want to make a good choice is all.  Thanks a lot in advance folks.

[Ambystom01]

As a starting point, search. There are lots of threads on winter tires on WSC. You're not the first person to ask this question.

I had Michelin Alpine PA4s on my C63. I liked them a lot. They handle cold pavement and compact snow very well. They're meant to be a performance winter tire; hence the stiffer sidewall.

Unless you're planning on driving 10/10 in the winter, in which case you're gonna crash no matter what tires you have, you'll be fine with either option you've proposed. I think you're overthinking this.

[05LGT]

I’m usually a cheap Chinese plus long stud winter tire guy but I recently tried the new Sottozero on my dad’s car and was seriously impressed. I really don’t like Hakkas and XI3 personally, WS80 would be my choice over both of those if I was forced to go with a standard winter tire.

[kold911]

Since you're in so, I'd recommend going down a size, and it's rare for sk roads to be down to pavement like in Alberta, so more hard packed ice. I'd also recommend going to hakkas, so worth the money.

[silverUURX]

I run 225/45/18 Hakka 8's on stock sti rims. I think they are pretty amazing tires. And all my friends I've convinced to buy nokians are extremely happy with them.

[jellynuts]

If you're brave enough, you could go down to 17"


https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?s=7b5cfd7c73f56de39523b7ad0df727ac&p=45290583&postcount=20

Look at that clearance lol. 

Anyway, I ran studdless Hakkas for the last 5 years.  They were 9 years old by the time I replaced them.  I replaced them with 05LGT's cheap Chinese Champiros studded tires. 

Verdict:  Hakkas were great.  Champiros are great.  Champiros are a lot more tail happy, I find, but I could also be driving more aggressively/carelessly because I don't care so much about burning cheap tires, where as, I babied the Hakka's. 

Keep in mind, the Hakka's lasted 9 years.  Who knows how long these Champiros will last. 

I also have a set of Westlakes with oversized studs which I use for ice racing.  They have only seen a dozen events at most, and are already chunking. 

I have also raced with the studdless Hakka's, and I was worthless with them.  Absolutely no control, understeered through every corner, steering and brake response were all delayed or non-existent.  Went on with the Westlakes the next year and I received "Most Improved" reward.   For everyday DD'ing, I'd recommend the Hakkas. 

Overall verdict:  A good choice would be any winter tire.  A bad choice would be, not a winter tire.  Don't stress out about the make and model too much. 

[SlowLGT]

When I had my Subaru, I used 205 50R17 and traction was great on snow and ice with both studded (Gislaved NF5) and studless (Bridgestone WS70 and WS80). They felt quite soft on dry pavement especially at higher speed. It's all about the trade off though. They were worth it to me, because I did some trips to/from Fort McMurray in some real bad weather without any problems, and they also worked very well for ice-x events.

A tire that works great in winter conditions needs to be soft with tons of sipings, and preferably in a size that's got a little more sidewall and a little less tread width. They can cut through the slush/snow and manage to find grip when there is a lot of slip angle. As a result, the steering on dry pavement is not going to be as precise or responsive. On the other end of the scale, you have a performance tire that has stiffer sidewall, harder compound, and works within a narrower window of slip angle. I test drove a BMW X5 with performance winter tires in sport package sizes, so probably 20" rims with 305 or 315 wide rear tires. The tire/rim package alone was $4000+. I did not find a dry stretch of road to test them out, but the traction control light didn't stop blinking on loose surfaces.

Here is a good video from Team O'Neil Rally School talking about what makes a good winter tire, and the different types of winter tires.


p.s. this thread makes me want to find a set of winter tires for the vette...

[Unholysavage]

I've always been skeptical of "performance" winter tires, as sidewall compliance is pretty important for traction on rough roads.
the Continental contiwinter contacts I first had on my STI had far stiffer sidewalls than my Hakkas, and they were simply awful on roads covered with rough, compacted snow. with the contis, imperfections/holes on compacted snow-covered roads caused the car to constantly slip and change direction. the soft sidewalls on my Hakkas soak up much more of the chatter, and keep the car tracking far more straight on our rough streets in suburbia. now, contiwinter contacts are probably the shittiest winter tire ever created, but I just can't see stiffer sidewalls on good performance winters doing nearly as well as a soft regular winter on uneven/rough roads.

one bit of advice I do have, since you're considering performance tires for winter, is to stick with non studded tires. on dry pavement the Hakka 8s on my STI skate around like a dog on hardwood. my wife's Hyundai Accent, with non-studded Hakka R2s, corners and brakes noticeably better on dry pavement than my STI on studded tires.

[kold911]

one bit of advice I do have, since you're considering performance tires for winter, is to stick with non studded tires. on dry pavement the Hakka 8s on my STI skate around like a dog on hardwood. my wife's Hyundai Accent, with non-studded Hakka R2s, corners and brakes noticeably better on dry pavement than my STI on studded tires.

I've got hakka 8's on my forester. Haven't noticed any reduced braking or increased "skating" on dry pavement??

After this past cold spell/storm in calgary, I can't imagine ever buying another non-studded winter tire.  I buy my tires for the "what if" factor. IE in winter, you'll be fine  75% of the time with all seasons, but I buy winters because of the other 25% (those are official numbers..lol) of the time when you need traction.  Going even further, you only need studded winters for a very small portion of that, but man, are they ever awesome when you need them. This past week, they paid for themselves easily.

To each their own.

[jellynuts]

I've got hakka 8's on my forester. Haven't noticed any reduced braking or increased "skating" on dry pavement??

After this past cold spell/storm in calgary, I can't imagine ever buying another non-studded winter tire.  I buy my tires for the "what if" factor. IE in winter, you'll be fine  75% of the time with all seasons, but I buy winters because of the other 25% (those are official numbers..lol) of the time when you need traction.  Going even further, you only need studded winters for a very small portion of that, but man, are they ever awesome when you need them. This past week, they paid for themselves easily.

To each their own.

The studs on Hakka 8's are sunken into the tread so you might not have the same experience as Unholysavage.  Try longer studs.  They're like ball bearings on the road. 

Personally, I think studded tires are overrated. 

-edit-

Oh wait, he was talking about Hakka 8's too.  Well...  Try longer studs anyway

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

I'm honestly really disappointed with my Gislaved 100's on my GTI during this cold spell. They've been great in snow, but with the packed snow/ice, it's constant traction issues from a dead stop. On my STi they were great, but that was AWD w/ LSD's everywhere. This is a FWD torque monster with an open diff. On the flipside, I've had no issues stopping, which is nice.

I'm wondering if the studs are just done, after all the dry pavement driving they've seen.

[diamondedge]

+1 on the skate-y effect. I'm on a 55 series sidewall and it definitely feels squirmy and skatey when it's warmer and drier. Ask 05LGT when he saw me lift oversteer at <40 km/h haha

On the 30th, I could still get wheel spin on my new Hakka 9s leaving intersections, even gentle on the clutch takeup/throttle. It was really that icy out there. Granted, once I killed the wheelspin I could take
off pretty well and left most people behind.

My community and surrounding area is just bad for icy roads so I went studded. If I lived in the inner city of Calgary, I would probably buy studless.

[05LGT]

I was getting wheel spin even with my 2mm studs and AWD with gentle take offs in places this weekend, it was truly slippery in some places.

Also I’ve never ever driven a studded tire that didn’t have noticeable reduction in braking capability’s on dry pavement. The longer the stud the worse it gets, but Hakkas aren’t immune that’s for sure.

[RedBimmer93]

I was getting wheel spin even with my 2mm studs and AWD with gentle take offs in places this weekend, it was truly slippery in some places.

Also I’ve never ever driven a studded tire that didn’t have noticeable reduction in braking capability’s on dry pavement. The longer the stud the worse it gets, but Hakkas aren’t immune that’s for sure.

The most effective way to set off is with launch control

[jutes]

I ran WRG3s on my 98 fuz for years in the winter and didn’t die. I like to live on the wild side.

[Cagare]

I originally ran Dunlop Wintersport M3s on my STi when I first bought it in Ontario, and ran that in Alberta for a few years before I moved to Hakka 8s. 

The dunlop were great in Ontario because mostly it is just bare cold roads, some snowfall, but not a lot.  The car felt not tremendously different from what it did in the summer on dry roads, but reduced performance.

The Hakka 8's were loads softer than the Dunlop, very noticeable. I trusted them more than the Dunlop's though, they did not give as much traction on dry bare pavement as the Dunlops, which was noticeable but not dangerous or difficult to drive.  Dry pavement acted more like slightly wet pavement. 

I don't going either tire is wrong just have different characteristics.  I just wouldn't agree to paying more for performance winter tires for what they give you.  I would stick with just regular "touring" winter tires.

[mudferret]

I had Michelin Alpine PA4s on my C63. I liked them a lot. They handle cold pavement and compact snow very well. They're meant to be a performance winter tire; hence the stiffer sidewall.

Great for chasing ambulances. amirite? 

[Ambystom01]

Not in that business anymore.

[Ambystom01]

But yes.