Topic: "Toothless" - 05LGT's AP1 S2000 - Progress Update: Faffing Around

[Murray Peterson]

4) Oil squirters updated?

Not legal in B Street class

5) AP2 retainers?

Not legal in B Street class

[RockThePylon]

seriously, what the uckfay. How could you post that on the internet?

Seriously, who keeps letting that guy on the track? He's clueless.

Not legal in B Street class

Shhh, no one will know.

[Dr Beans]

Not legal in B Street class
Not legal in B Street class

I've never understood how mods that don't effect the performance of a vehicle aren't allowed in a class/type of racing that is not effected by endurance.

[Canuckrz]

Did you ever straighten out that shift knob bro?

I've never understood how mods that don't effect the performance of a vehicle aren't allowed in a class/type of racing that is not effected by endurance.

Welcome to the world of PAX, and trying to degrade other drivers with technicalities instead of actually beating them. Not aimed at anyone in particular, just at the rulebook in general.

I use to be really stoaked about the idea of getting into AutoX and how the PAX system made it so that it was a fair playing ground so you didn't need a track car to compete. Then I started hearing about and looking into the rules surrounding PAX, and you basically need a car tailored to a specific class to compete, and nonsense rules that will throw you into a high category like having a master cylinder brace puts you into SM, putting in the killer bee windage tray in when you do your oil pickup also throws you up classes. It just kind of looks and feels like PAX and the rules around it became what it was trying to prevent.

[Dr Beans]

Actually, now that you bring it up in more detail, whenever I have read through some of the rules in depth it always seems like whoever wrote them has very little mechanical knowledge.... or the rules were formed surrounding common modifications on popular cars.

Anyhow, its been two pages and not a single photo of the car. Pics or gtfo.

[RedBimmer93]

[05LGT]

Yeah those drivers were pretty terrible in that video but I have to give them props for at least driving at the track, keeping stuff like that off the roads is important, especially because they look like they don't have a clue about car control.

[Rathburn]

I've never understood how mods that don't effect the performance of a vehicle aren't allowed in a class/type of racing that is not effected by endurance.

Did you ever straighten out that shift knob bro?
Welcome to the world of PAX, and trying to degrade other drivers with technicalities instead of actually beating them. Not aimed at anyone in particular, just at the rulebook in general.

I use to be really stoaked about the idea of getting into AutoX and how the PAX system made it so that it was a fair playing ground so you didn't need a track car to compete. Then I started hearing about and looking into the rules surrounding PAX, and you basically need a car tailored to a specific class to compete, and nonsense rules that will throw you into a high category like having a master cylinder brace puts you into SM, putting in the killer bee windage tray in when you do your oil pickup also throws you up classes. It just kind of looks and feels like PAX and the rules around it became what it was trying to prevent.

It's also about parity and keeping costs down. If you have a car that is stock, and you want to run it in the Street class, mod are limited. If you want to spend Stupid Money you run in SM. All that little stuff you don't think ads performance nickle and dimes the cost up, and does add up to a performance advantage. If there was truly no gain from a master cylinder brace, you wouldn't have added one to your car.

[Cagare]

If there was truly no gain from a master cylinder brace, you wouldn't have added one to your car.

Certainly a MBC adds performance.  At the same time I think a lot of us have added mods to our cars which are questionable in terms of performance increase, and more just because we read that we should do it somewhere.

In terms of the rules the SCCA has been doing this for a long time, and they are always reviewing and evaluating rules.  If you are ever curious about how much they review it you can read the monthly "fasttrack" for Solo. 

http://www.scca.com/pages/fastrack-news

[Murray Peterson]

Welcome to the world of PAX, and trying to degrade other drivers with technicalities instead of actually beating them. Not aimed at anyone in particular, just at the rulebook in general.

You are confusing PAX with the SCCA classing and prep rules.

All those rules just determine your competition class.  At a major SCCA event, you only compete against other cars in your class, and PAX isn't anywhere to be seen.

PAX was invented as an attempt to allow people in different classes to compete against each other.  It's priceless at small events like ours, where we just don't have enough competitors to fill up the individual classes.

[ultimatt]

You are confusing PAX with the SCCA classing and prep rules.

All those rules just determine your competition class.  At a major SCCA event, you only compete against other cars in your class, and PAX isn't anywhere to be seen.

PAX was invented as an attempt to allow people in different classes to compete against each other.  It's priceless at small events like ours, where we just don't have enough competitors to fill up the individual classes.

It seems to work out okay. You can always just ignore it and compare raw.

That said, I wish they allowed more cooling mods in ST*. Would be better to allow for good lapping and AutoX cross preparation.

[Canuckrz]

All that little stuff you don't think ads performance nickle and dimes the cost up, and does add up to a performance advantage.

Absolutely, not debating that. My issue is with all these little oddball items.

If there was truly no gain from a master cylinder brace, you wouldn't have added one to your car.

The only thing the MC brace really does is improve pedal feel. The same way stainless brake lines would. Yet there is no rules that I'm aware of regarding what ridiculously unstreetable and more often than not expensive brake pads you can run in a stock car that will legitimately give you an advantage. If you think that the MC brace improves stopping distance any real appreciable amount you've been drinking way too much of GrimmSpeed's koolaid.

You are confusing PAX with the SCCA classing and prep rules.

All those rules just determine your competition class.  At a major SCCA event, you only compete against other cars in your class, and PAX isn't anywhere to be seen.

PAX was invented as an attempt to allow people in different classes to compete against each other.  It's priceless at small events like ours, where we just don't have enough competitors to fill up the individual classes.

Not surprised I got something mixed up, I don't know a ton about the history and intricacies. That being said isn't it a chicken and the egg thing, as PAX is the result of the SCCA classing. And like I said I definitely appreciate the core reasoning for PAX and classing. Just so many ridiculously and obtuse rules in both directions of what is allowed and what isn't.

Certainly a MBC adds performance.  At the same time I think a lot of us have added mods to our cars which are questionable in terms of performance increase, and more just because we read that we should do it somewhere.

In terms of the rules the SCCA has been doing this for a long time, and they are always reviewing and evaluating rules.  If you are ever curious about how much they review it you can read the monthly "fasttrack" for Solo. 

http://www.scca.com/pages/fastrack-news

Interesting. I'm surprised in some ways but not in others that things are still fluctuating this much at this point in the game. And the rules around the actual MBC I can definitely understand.

[Rathburn]

The only thing the MC brace really does is improve pedal feel. The same way stainless brake lines would. Yet there is no rules that I'm aware of regarding what ridiculously unstreetable and more often than not expensive brake pads you can run in a stock car that will legitimately give you an advantage. If you think that the MC brace improves stopping distance any real appreciable amount you've been drinking way too much of GrimmSpeed's koolaid.

I'm not saying that it's going to make your car that much faster around a course, but it helps you modulate the pedal better giving you more prescise control in braking zones. An upgraded seat wont give you any power or make you stop faster, but it is a performance enhancer. Not everything you do to your car has an obviously quantitative benefit.

All those little things add up, that's kind my point. They have to limit it somewhere.

[coop3422]

If you're looking for some AP1 wheels, I'm selling mine. Just got some AP2V1's and don't need them anymore.

[05LGT]

If you're looking for some AP1 wheels, I'm selling mine. Just got some AP2V1's and don't need them anymore.

I already found some for $300 unless yours are cheaper?

[05LGT]

So, I have had about 2200km of street time in the car now with 6 auto x runs, time for some thoughts.  I will start with auto x.  I was warned that this car would be a handful without a stiff front sway bar.  I did experience some...snap oversteer once or twice on a couple cloverleafs entering higher speed roads.  I didn't find it as bad as some people made it out to be.  Yes it does oversteer more than you want, but maybe I just wasn't pushing it as hard as I needed to be.  One thing that I wasn't expecting was the slip angle coming out of a slalom in 2nd gear, I thought the car was gripping and pointed straight but as I started to straighten for the next corner the car was really unsettled under power and still slipping the other direction, which nearly ended in a massive oosterray up on two of my runs.  Other than that the tires were right crap as expected and there was lots of low speed plowing turned into massive oversteer in the slow corners.

Grant suggested I write a little comparo of the BRZ vs S2000, and I will throw in some thoughts here about the Miata too.  On longer drives, the BRZ is much quieter and more comfortable noise wise than the other two, however the Miata had the most comfortable seats.  The S2000 has much less wind buffeting vs the Miata likely due to the factory wind deflector.  Most people wouldn't think it but it sure is nice to have A/C in the S2000, because sitting in traffic with the roof down on a hot sunny day isn't very pleasant without it.  The S2000 also has very short gearing compared to the BRZ and Miata, and sits at 4000rpm in 6th at 120km/h on the highway.  I would really like longer 5th and 6th ratios.  In terms of handling, the Miata was most neutral, the S2000 most oversteery so far.  The BRZ was somewhere in between and with my setup had the most mechanical grip in my opinion.  The S2000 and Miata have/had nicer gear change feeling than the BRZ, which was often notchy especially going into first in the slow corners at auto x.  The clutch on the S2000 is much heavier than the BRZ and Miata, and seems to engage further up than I want it to.  Potential for clutch replacement coming down the road I think.  I prefer the steering weight of the S2000 to the BRZ, I always found the BRZ felt too light even with the added Caster.  The S2000 has the most interesting engine, it loves to rev and it really changes tone when the VTEC crossover hits.  The Miata was my second favorite engine, based on its exhaust tone and it felt fairly torquey for a 1.8L.  The BRZ stock had a very meh engine, I found it didn't love to rev nor feel torquey down low, it didn't sound interesting and was just overall lacking the pizzaz most people want in a sports car.  That's not to say its a bad engine, but it doesn't provide that fizzing sensation behind your pelvis that you want in a small sports car.  They are all similar in fuel economy.  Mods are cheapest for the Miata, followed by the BRZ and finally the most expensive being the S2000.

I can't wait to try the S2000 with proper prep for next year.  For now as soon as I get my truck back up and running I will probably be parking the S2000 until next year.

[Murray Peterson]

One thing that I wasn't expecting was the slip angle coming out of a slalom in 2nd gear, I thought the car was gripping and pointed straight but as I started to straighten for the next corner the car was really unsettled under power and still slipping the other direction, which nearly ended in a massive oosterray up on two of my runs.  Other than that the tires were right crap as expected and there was lots of low speed plowing turned into massive oversteer in the slow corners.

Was this the slalom exit just before the finish?  That spot upset my car badly as well; it was right on the center line (camber change), complete with paint (less grip).  Every time I tried to exit the slalom hot and move to the right, the back end would start moving out and give me a tank slapper into the finish.  I ended up having to tap the brakes to settle the rear.

I can't wait to try the S2000 with proper prep for next year.

Feel free to take our car out for a run or two if you want to know what it feels like.

[05LGT]

Was this the slalom exit just before the finish?  That spot upset my car badly as well; it was right on the center line (camber change), complete with paint (less grip).  Every time I tried to exit the slalom hot and move to the right, the back end would start moving out and give me a tank slapper into the finish.  I ended up having to tap the brakes to settle the rear.

No actually it was on the return of the first slalom in the morning.

Unfortunately probably won't be out for any more events this year besides trying to get a ride for nationals.

[Dr Beans]

The clutch on the S2000 is much heavier than the BRZ and Miata, and seems to engage further up than I want it to.  Potential for clutch replacement coming down the road I think.

You can completely change when it engages, and how much play is in the pedal before it disengages. I adjusted my slave cylinder for half a day until I found the spot I liked (one inch off the floor mat and an 1cm of play in the pedal).

Also, imo it's a hard car to drive fast. I've said it before, but the snap oversteer is 90% driver error. It's the first car I've been in that has an extremely high sensitivity to lift off oversteer. I think people forget how sensitive the gas pedal is and when they back off a bit they don't realized how much they just dropped the revs.

[05LGT]

You can completely change when it engages, and how much play is in the pedal before it disengages. I adjusted my slave cylinder for half a day until I found the spot I liked (one inch off the floor mat and an 1cm of play in the pedal).

Also, imo it's a hard car to drive fast. I've said it before, but the snap oversteer is 90% driver error. It's the first car I've been in that has an extremely high sensitivity to lift off oversteer. I think people forget how sensitive the gas pedal is and when they back off a bit they don't realized how much they just dropped the revs.

I am fine with how it feels, I just get the sense it may actually need a clutch eventually.  Also the oversteer is not from lifting off, its under power in medium corners.

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

Dat power oversteer. I accidentally missed a gate yesterday (trying to turn launch control off... mid launch) and I knew I DNF'd my run, so I just had fun for the rest of the course... which was my fastest time.

Did you run square or staggered on those few runs you did do?

[05LGT]

Dat power oversteer. I accidentally missed a gate yesterday (trying to turn launch control off... mid launch) and I knew I DNF'd my run, so I just had fun for the rest of the course... which was my fastest time.

Did you run square or staggered on those few runs you did do?

I ran the bald staggered 225/255 Dunlop SP something crap and Hankook V12 crap on my runs.

[Evo_Precision]

Hopefully this car ends up being what you've been after all along.  I'm very interested to see how things will turn out next year once the car is adequately prepared for B Street.  Also kind of happy to be rid of you in ST... For now.

[Evo_Precision]

That said, I wish they allowed more cooling mods in ST*. Would be better to allow for good lapping and AutoX cross preparation.

Lack of allowable cooling mods is also my biggest complaint about ST classification. The BRZ has very substandard cooling and pretty much requires an oil cooler and radiator to be reliable on the track. I believe oil coolers are allowed in ST as of 2015?  The fact that stock clutches are required is also mildly irksome, but that one I can more or less understand the reasoning behind.

[Rathburn]

^ This is also my biggest complaint about ST classification.  The fact that stock clutches are required is also mildly irksome, but that one I can more or less understand the reasoning behind.

Shouldn't matter too much; you're not putting down a tonne of extra power with headers, a light weight pulley, bit of timing, and an intake. Stock clutch should handle that no problem.